Religion or Atheism? An open forum.

[denuseri]

Oh come on! I don't care what you call it: atheism, non-theism, religiously challenged. The point is that there have been non-believers for as long as their have been believers. The problem is that you keep insisting that atheism is just another belief system, rather than a simple statement of fact.

I said nothing about "systems", atheism is a "belief" though, I cant help it if your deliberately being ..how did you put it earlier in the thread...oh yes.."dense".


Which makes my point. Culture's views on things change over time. Something which was acceptable, even commendable, only a few hundred years ago is now considered abominable, at least by "civilized" society. The same is true for homosexuality. There have been times when it has been acceptable, even admired in some cultures. It's only recently that it has come to be tolerated in this culture. Yet the "tolerant" Christians, Jews, Muslims and others are fighting tenaciously against equal rights for homosexuals. And their only reasons for that are based on their religious teachings.

So are tolerant Capitalists, democrats, republicans, and yes...atheists. Being against homo-sexuals is not a religious only thing.

I agree, everyone has the right to their own opinion. But they do not have the right to deny others that same right.

Actually in a democracy everyone has the right to speak out, period...which way the country ends up going though isnt a "right" its how the majority decided it would turn out...in so far as actually denying anyone anything...well thats for the legal system to sort out once something is indeed made a right by law.


That's not what I said, and you know it!

It isnt?...Well who then gets to decide what children are allowed to be taught by their parents then?

I just think it's bad enough that parents stuff their kids heads full of mythology, we don't need to have the schools doing it too. Just teach kids to think critically. Teach them not to believe everything someone tells them. Regardless of who it is.

They dont see it as "mythology"...your still talking about taking even more parents "rights" away.


Which probably explains why you have changed religions so much.

Not at all...though I can understand why you would wish to make such a presumption.

A good thing in my view. As I've said, I can respect your search, (I wasnt on some kind of religious scavenger hunt silly) and I still go to Lutheran Church because you are obviously thinking deeply about it. My only criticism, in your case, is that it seems to me you are always searching based on the premise that a god, or gods, exists.

No I studied atheism at length and rejected it as being an unlikely and illogical conclussion to make about the universe.


Again, you're misrepresenting what I'm saying. Since I have no religious beliefs there's nothing to replace other's beliefs with.

So you offer "nothing". Now there is even "less" of a reason to listen too you.


Don't think of it as a movement away from gods, but as a movement away from superstition.

That however isnt how believers in a paticular religion feel...I hope you can one day respect that.

Humans once had multiple gods, for everything.

They still do in many cultures.

Eventually they whittled that down to just one god (for the most part) although everyone has different opinions about what that one god is and what he wants.

They even whittled it down to no gods in some movments (like the Communist ones) and we all know how that turned out.

Perhaps now it is time to put aside that security blanket and accept that WE are responsible for what we do and only WE can make it right.

Ive never heard anywhere during any of my time here on this earth of any religion that promotes an idea of anything less than self responsibility for ones actions. Not one.

Gods, Santa Clause, fairies and leprechauns have no place in our lives except as sometimes amusing stories for children.

And equating religious adherence to being a child or having faith in a God or Gods as being a belief in a Santa or fairies and leprechauns has no place in a debate about atheism and religion. Not if you expect the faithful to have any respect for what you saying. Insulting all people of faith is not the best way to influence them.

Maybe this is where the real disagreement arises, and why religious people cling so hard to their gods. I am not offering anyone an alternative. I don't have anything that replaces religion or gods or faith. That would be like teaching you can lose weight by switching from Angel Food cake to Devil's Food cake. (Yeah, I did that on purpose! So sue me!) It isn't going to help. I'm saying eliminate the cake completely.

You have to eat somthing...or you starve to death eventually.

See and you said you didnt have a belief system...yet here you are defining the tenents of your faith:

"Eliminate the superstitions completely. You don't need gods to do the right thing. You don't need gods to love other people. You don't need preachers to tell you to help your neighbor. Do it because it's the right thing to do, because it's the human thing to do".

Just like the theists, telling other people "what" to believe.

[Thorne]

atheism is a "belief" though

Only by your interpretation, not by mine.

So are tolerant Capitalists, democrats, republicans, and yes...atheists. Being against homo-sexuals is not a religious only thing.

Yes, but the others don't claim to be the true arbiters of morality, the way theists do.

well thats for the legal system to sort out once something is indeed made a right by law.

Those rights have already been established by law. The law doesn't specify that you don't get those rights if you're homosexual, or if you're black, or if you're atheist, or if you're theist. The law applies to ALL. If any are given those rights, ALL must be given those rights. Which includes the right to worship (or not) as one wishes. NOT as someone else declares.

They dont see it as "mythology"...your still talking about taking even more parents "rights" away.

Nope, not even close. I'm talking about NOT teaching wishful thinking IN SCHOOLS. I never said anything about what parents should, or should not, be able to teach their kids.

That being said, however, do you think parents should have the "right" to deny their children medical care when the children are ill, just because of their own religious beliefs? Should parents have the "right" to brutally beat their children because the Bible tells them not to spare the rod? Do you not agree that there are certain limits society, and the law, MUST place on parents when dealing with the health and welfare of their children?

No I studied atheism at length and rejected it as being an unlikely and illogical conclussion to make about the universe.

Just out of curiosity, how does one "study" atheism? Are their classes on it? Atheist seminaries? Are we atheists supposed to send our kids to Monday School or something?

I am an atheist NOT because of what I believe, but because of what I do NOT believe. That's it. My views on science, evolution, cosmology, history, society, etc., have nothing to do with being an atheist. Yes, my understanding of those things probably influenced my non-belief, but is not defined by it.

So you offer "nothing". Now there is even "less" of a reason to listen too you.

You haven't been listening anyway, so what's the difference?

That however isnt how believers in a paticular religion feel...I hope you can one day respect that.

Respect it, no. Understand it, yes. But where does one draw the line between, "If I have sex outside of marriage I'll be sent to Hell," and "If I break a mirror I'll have seven years bad luck." Each of these statements have their believers. Neither are provable.

Ive never heard anywhere during any of my time here on this earth of any religion that promotes an idea of anything less than self responsibility for ones actions.

But if you pray hard enough, believe hard enough, send Pat Robertson enough money, God will forgive you!

And equating religious adherence to being a child or having faith in a God or Gods as being a belief in a Santa or fairies and leprechauns has no place in a debate about atheism and religion.

Why not? Show me how they are different. How is the idea that Santa Clause knows if you've been bad or good any different from the idea that God knows if you've been bad or good? How is writing a letter to Santa asking for gifts any different from praying to God asking for gifts?

Sure, theist don't like those kinds of arguments, and will get all upset by them. Just as I get upset by your dogmatic insistence that atheism is a belief. Oh, well. Guess they'll have to learn to live with it, just like me.

[thir]

Ive never heard anywhere during any of my time here on this earth of any religion that promotes an idea of anything less than self responsibility for ones actions.

What about 'I must act like this because it is in the bible'? Or whatever religious book you have.

I kill gays because they are an abomination in the eyes of god. I blow up planes because my god tells me to. I kill women if they do not wear the clothes (I think) my book says they should.

Do these people feel responsible for their actions? No, their excuse is that it is the will of god!

I am totally in agreement with you D that people have a right to have their religion in peace, and totally in agreement with T that it must be a private matter and must not impose on anyone else.

[denuseri]

What about 'I must act like this because it is in the bible'? Or whatever religious book you have.

Well, let me see, last time I checked, the Bible, in paticular the new testament has Jesus make a little statement about such things that pretty much excludes all the old testament hard core laws that are by all rights no longer applicable even to the most fundamentalist of followers, with a simple..."Love thy nieghbor as theyself" commandment. Similar "words" and conditions are set forth in all the major faiths. So effectively anyone useing violence to achiev their ends, in all of the majior faiths is basically going directly against the major tennents of their own faith. Especially if one is taking a litteral interpetation of said tennents.

I kill gays because they are an abomination in the eyes of god. I blow up planes because my god tells me to. I kill women if they do not wear the clothes (I think) my book says they should.

Do these people feel responsible for their actions? No, their excuse is that it is the will of god!

And their "excuse" as explained above is not jusification in the eyes of their god at all but a sin against him.

I am totally in agreement with you D that people have a right to have their religion in peace, and totally in agreement with T that it must be a private matter and must not impose on anyone else.

Secularism doesnt require privacy to function...just mutual respect and understanding.

[Thorne]

And their "excuse" as explained above is not jusification in the eyes of their god at all but a sin against him.

I find it interesting that theists who do evil things in the name of their god are considered to be sinners and not really doing what their god wants. How do you know what their god wants? How can you know that their god is not speaking to them and actually telling them what to do? Just because it offends you?

That's the great fallacy of religions. Once you accept the concept of a supernatural being who controls the universe and who can do anything He wishes, you can no longer claim that someone else is not doing His bidding. What that person does may be offensive to you, but how can you know that you are right and he is wrong? Maybe God DID tell him to do those things. After all, God did tell Joshua, on more than one occasion, to kill all the inhabitants of towns he conquered, down to the last man, woman, child and cow! Who's to say that God wouldn't tell someone to kill an abortion doctor, or a gay man, or anyone else, for that matter. I know, you don't want to believe that God would do such a thing, but HOW-CAN-YOU-KNOW?

[denuseri]

Only by your interpretation, not by mine.

Not only by my interpetation, but that of the experts who defined the terminology and its meanings.


Yes, but the others don't claim to be the true arbiters of morality, the way theists do.

Or the way Atheists do?


Those rights have already been established by law. The law doesn't specify that you don't get those rights if you're homosexual, or if you're black, or if you're atheist, or if you're theist. The law applies to ALL. If any are given those rights, ALL must be given those rights. Which includes the right to worship (or not) as one wishes. NOT as someone else declares.

If that was the case there wouldnt be a schism in society right now between the proponents of gay marriage and the proponents against it. The law would allready have it covered.

Nope, not even close. I'm talking about NOT teaching wishful thinking IN SCHOOLS. I never said anything about what parents should, or should not, be able to teach their kids.

Really? Sure doesnt look that way.

That being said, however, do you think parents should have the "right" to deny their children medical care when the children are ill, just because of their own religious beliefs? Should parents have the "right" to brutally beat their children because the Bible tells them not to spare the rod? Do you not agree that there are certain limits society, and the law, MUST place on parents when dealing with the health and welfare of their children?

Last time I checked we have laws in place allready that cover all that.


Just out of curiosity, how does one "study" atheism? Are their classes on it? Atheist seminaries? Are we atheists supposed to send our kids to Monday School or something?

Its real simple, you can take a class in theology, or philosophy, or any history course that covers those time periods (where they will teach you about it.) or you can read any number of books and other things written on it in self study...just like anything else.

I am an atheist NOT because of what I believe, but because of what I do NOT believe.

Then why spend so much time telling us what your lack of belief entails...if its got nothing in it, it shouldnt need to be expounded upon at all.

That's it. My views on science, evolution, cosmology, history, society, etc., have nothing to do with being an atheist. Yes, my understanding of those things probably influenced my non-belief, but is not defined by it.

Just as a theists religious adherence does not nessesary have anything to do with any of that eaither.


You haven't been listening anyway, so what's the difference?

Oh Ive been listening....the real question is have you been listening to yourself?

Respect it, no. That much is obvious...so much for all your clap trap conserning secularism. Understand it, yes. If you really understood it, you wouldnt be so adamantely set against its contemporary practice within the letter of the laws of our society today. But where does one draw the line between, "If I have sex outside of marriage I'll be sent to Hell," and "If I break a mirror I'll have seven years bad luck." Each of these statements have their believers. Neither are provable. You dont have to draw any line save for yourself and leave the lines other wish to draw for themselves.



But if you pray hard enough, believe hard enough, send Pat Robertson enough money, God will forgive you!

Ive never sent Pat a single dime...and truth be told I dont actually know anyone else who has...why people send their money to places though I believe is their own business in any event.


Why not? Show me how they are different. How is the idea that Santa Clause knows if you've been bad or good any different from the idea that God knows if you've been bad or good? How is writing a letter to Santa asking for gifts any different from praying to God asking for gifts?

Becuase one is a commonly acepted fairytale, where as the other is someone's belief system and as such is deserving of the same mutual respect you claim atheism deserves.

Sure, theist don't like those kinds of arguments, and will get all upset by them. Just as I get upset by your dogmatic insistence that atheism is a belief. Oh, well. Guess they'll have to learn to live with it, just like me.

Theists, like all people I am guessing dont like being insulted in such manner, that should be a given, and if you truely believed in secularism and wished to actual influence anyone one way or the other you wouldnt use inflamatory sophistry to accomplish the task. Youd practice what you claim to preach.

[Thorne]

That being said, however, do you think parents should have the "right" to deny their children medical care when the children are ill, just because of their own religious beliefs? Should parents have the "right" to brutally beat their children because the Bible tells them not to spare the rod? Do you not agree that there are certain limits society, and the law, MUST place on parents when dealing with the health and welfare of their children?

Last time I checked we have laws in place allready that cover all that.

Yes, we do. And why do we have those laws? To prevent the abuse of the children. But isn't telling a child that she will go to hell and burn for eternity if she touches herself also abuse? Isn't it abuse to tell a child that God will throw him into a pit of burning brimstone to be tortured by demons abuse? Should there not be laws to protect against that kind of abuse as well?

But where does one draw the line between, "If I have sex outside of marriage I'll be sent to Hell," and "If I break a mirror I'll have seven years bad luck." Each of these statements have their believers. Neither are provable.
You dont have to draw any line save for yourself and leave the lines other wish to draw for themselves.

I would love to, but it's the theists who want to make premarital sex illegal, not me.

Becuase one is a commonly acepted fairytale, where as the other is someone's belief system and as such is deserving of the same mutual respect you claim atheism deserves.

So if children believe it it's a fairy tale, but if adults believe it it's a religion? Sorry, I don't buy it. If you compare them they sound pretty much alike.

in paticular the new testament has Jesus make a little statement about such things that pretty much excludes all the old testament hard core laws that are by all rights no longer applicable even to the most fundamentalist of followers,

Sorry, but that's not true.

Matthew 5:17-20 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

[denuseri]

Sorry, but that's not true.

Sorry, but it is:

" Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. "

[Thorne]

Sorry, but it is:

All of those may ADD to the law, but Jesus specifically stated that he was not abolishing Mosaic Law, or the law of the Prophets.

[denuseri]

All of those may ADD to the law, but Jesus specifically stated that he was not abolishing Mosaic Law, or the law of the Prophets.

No!.. none of them add to the law...they just explain the law allready in existance.

You are trying to use sophistry yet again to twist what was written. When Jesus told them that he wasnt here to change the Law...its becuase it didnt need changing...becuase Love...loving thy nieghbor as thyself...was allready the law!