Finding that fine balance

[Jennifer Williams]

Hello all; I have a question for all of you lovely submissives out there . I've been with my sub for about four years and we know each other fairly well. I think I can understand most of his needs and wants; but one thing that continually baffles me is his desire to sacrifice his own wants for mine, well, all the time. He wants to eat whatever I want for dinner; he wants to watch whatever I want on TV, he wants to go out to wherever I'd like to go, etc. And I have no problems with this most of the time, except sometimes he'll actually lie and say what he knows I want to hear, and not the truth (like he'll say "Sure I'd love to go for a walk" when in reality his feet hurt from working all day and he really would rather not, and I don't find out until later, when he is wincing with each step). I've explained to him that I don't want that- that I care about him and I want to consider his needs. But he doesn't seem to be able to help himself.

I suppose the biggest problem is when he tells me he likes something that he doesn't (could be something sexual, could be something not), and then I honestly think he likes it. So if I'm feeling affectionate, I'll do it; and then I find out later he really doesn't like it. I don't think he does this on purpose; we've talked about it at length and he mentally understands that I want him to be truthful with me. He still does it anyway.

Should I just let it go, or should I keep insisting he be honest with me? I know it's a big need of his to sacrifice his own wants for mine, and I can't understand it beyond that. Whatever insight anyone has into this will be greatly welcomed; if anyone has had similar experiences I'd like to know your thoughts. Thank you so much!

[bip0lar]

Hm, I must admit I'm like him in this respect. The way I justify it to myself (cause I know my partner's thinking is exactly like yours) is that my want may be as important as his want, but at the end of the day I prefer doing what he likes, whether it's food, or the telly or whatever answer's the question "so, what now?". Partly, it's easier: no clash, therefore no problem. Plus, I feel a tiny bit of guilt creeping up if one in ten times I actually say what I want to do and we go ahead with it if my partner wanted something else. At the end of the day, if A's needs are these and B's needs are the others, unless there's a way of doing both, I'd much rather go along with what he wants, cause, hey, it may be a cliche to say I'm happy when he's happy, but I stand by it. I'm not saying I don't regret it when we're 10 minutes into a film I'm really not into, or started a game which really doesn't interest me in the slightest, but, apparently, I'm not regretting it enough to want it to change, so it can't be all that bad.
But going back to the top, that is just a justification for me. At the end of the day, I do it cause I'm like that. I prefer giving in to quarreling, even if it's an insignificant quarrel that has no real impact on our relationship.
I understand where you're coming from (both you and my own partner), and if it proves to be a bigger issue than I think it is at the moment, I will do my best to change, but at the end of the day, if it's the little details in an everyday routine, keep in mind that there's things we get from you that perk us up and make us happy enough to not really care if what we're watching isn't exactly our cup of tea, or if the walk isn't exactly our idea of a good time.

[Jennifer Williams]

Thank you very much for that insight. Since I'm the sort of person who always speaks up and gets what I want, I can't really understand all too well the "I'm happy if you're happy" point of view. My biggest concern is that I feel lied to when he pretends to like something because he knows it's what I want, and I'm not sure if I'm taking that feeling too far or if I should let it go. Of course, all of this is over small, trite things as you said; he does speak up and say what he thinks whenever something truly important comes up. Eventually. With a pained expression.

Just really, for months and months I bought chocolate and vanilla ice cream because I thought he liked vanilla (haha, how funny it is to say that); turns out he was just eating it because he knows I like chocolate more- if he had just said something, I could have bought solid chocolate instead!

[serviam {PixieStick}]

I don't have much new to add to the previous response beyond saying that I too am cast in the same mold you described. Being a pleaser is just such a powerful drive for me and it is extremely rare that I would indicate that I didn't want to do something a Dominant suggested. Using one of your examples, I laughed out loud about him agreeing to a walk even though his feet hurt from being on them all day at work as I would have done exactly the same thing. First sacrifice is a part of our nature and we just naturally put the wants and needs of others, especially within the context of a relationship above our own. The interesting thing too is no matter how much I do that sort of thing, I never feel resentful or put upon, but just very happy for the opportunity to give.

I can see I think how it could be maddening to some extent to a dominant person to experience this since I assume they can quite easily say so if they wish not to do something someone suggests. In a somewhat similar way, I know that when I date in the vanilla sense the women sometimes find it irritating that I defer to them with regards to where or what to eat, what movie to see, etc. It isn't that I don't have the ability to make choices, because I do and make them all the time for myself. But when another person is involved, the bottom line is that it is far more important to me that they be pleased and have an enjoyable time than it is that I be pleased and have a enjoyable time. So I rarely will suggest we do this or that. Not because I'm afraid they will disagree with my suggestion but just because I'd feel so awful if they said yes and then it turned out they didn't enjoy what I suggested. It just comes right back to the same thing, pleasing the other person is always my first priority and the thing that gives me joy.

[fetishdj]

I always do this and have done it all my life in all relationships... and I am not just talking scene ones here. I tend to dislike making decisions and prefer to make others happy rather than myself. I don't think I have got so bad as you describe - where someone does something to me sexually because they think I like it and I think they like it but neither of us do - but I can see it getting to that point if I am not careful sometimes.

This is one reason why I am in favour of 'non scene' time in a relationship -a period when you are not 'in role' and so can talk freely without consequences. Even in a 24/7 relationship when you are, in theory, in role all the time, you still need time to communicate honestly. Not sure it would necessarily help in your case (because I know this desire to please is more of a visceral thing - I do it automatically without thinking about it sometimes) but maybe a time to reflect on actions and desires for your sub may be beneficial. It may also be worth sitting down as a couple and doing lists of 'things you like' - seperately, in different rooms so neither of you can influence the other - and sharing the results. Even if you have already done this in the past, you may find that things have changed.

[sexyredhead]

Maybe this seems like too simple an answer, but does he journal? Maybe you could give him specific issues to journal about like his favorite places to eat and those he dislikes. Or have him make a list of things he does not enjoy doing at certain times and why. Maybe have him make a reward list of places he wants to go or movies he wants to see etc. If it is too hard to him to articulate these things for fear that he would be putting his needs ahead of yours, having him make lists as an assignment may help. Then when he completes a task you can reward him with dinner at his favorite place or surprising him with a movie he wants to see. Rather than feel lied too and having it become the elephant in the room so to speak you can take full control by incorporating it into your dynamic.
Good luck!

[denuseri]

<<thinks its becuase he simply like to submit and be pleasing to her. Shrugs. Omg maby he is a submissive who would have thunk.

Like maby its like the scoprion and the fox parable.


As for comunication...well thats paramont weather or not you only do bdsm in short "scenes" and go back to being vanila afterwards or if your never in a "scene" and its just who you are all the time.

As for journals...it seems to work for some...its never worked for me, (mainly becuase the dominants that ask for them expect somthinng that they could have got by simply asking, redundancy doesnt accomplish much or change my answers to questions), and most likely if your not hearing what you wish to hear from him in real life, dont expect to suddenly start hearing it in a journal. In fact if anything, in my experience, submissives have a tendency to eaither use the journel as some kind of topping from the bottom tool, or they write what they think the domme wishes to hear or some combination of the two.

As far as the whole "dom wants sub to be happy and choose what the couple is doing or eating thing"....smh I wish you the best of luck with that. A lot of submissives have this little place in their head thats wondering why they are even being asked such questions since they so clearly are not the ones in charge in their head and lets face it society doesnt prepare a dominant very well for being in charge nessesarally some dominants dont seem to understand that the submissive may have trouble making such decisions.

Only your submissive can tell you which way it is for him anyway so...why not ask him.

[openyoureyes]

Thank you very much for that insight. Since I'm the sort of person who always speaks up and gets what I want, I can't really understand all too well the "I'm happy if you're happy" point of view.

I've always been opinionated, and it's always been very important to me that my partner knows where my head is at. Although I can't be happy if my partner isn't happy, I can be miserable when my partner is happy. So this is why I try to always communicate my needs while still trying to compromise to meet theirs. However, this is hardest for me when we're in-session. If I'm on all fours and we're in the heat of the moment, he could ask me just about anything and I wouldn't want to ruin the moment if the truth wasn't sexy. We had issue with this once where I told him I liked something even though I didn't because I didn't want to ruin the moment, and another time when I got in trouble for not answering a question because the answer just wasn't sexy! He told me he wants the truth anyway, so I try, but it's much much harder in the middle of things than if he'd ask me afterward. Ok, I'm rambling, I'll shush.

My biggest concern is that I feel lied to when he pretends to like something because he knows it's what I want, and I'm not sure if I'm taking that feeling too far or if I should let it go.

This to me is the red flag. He is lying to you, thinking it makes you happy, but clearly it isn't making you happy. When you catch him in these situations, are you punishing him for misleading you? Do you think this might help him to learn to be honest, even when it might not please you? The way I see it, if you want to go for a walk and he doesn't, the worst that can happen if he tells you is that you make him go anyway. If instead of telling you something you don't want to hear, he just does want you want, it's the same result - he still goes for a walk even though his feet hurt. Maybe if you put it to him like this, he'd be more apt to tell you the truth?

Just really, for months and months I bought chocolate and vanilla ice cream because I thought he liked vanilla (haha, how funny it is to say that); turns out he was just eating it because he knows I like chocolate more- if he had just said something, I could have bought solid chocolate instead!

Ok, I have done this before, lol. If it's something I really don't care that much about, sometimes I'll just 'lump it' as it's something that isn't hurting me and isn't a big deal. Now, if he specifically asks me about it, I wouldn't lie. But it's also not something I'd bring up as an issue, either.

[skittish doe]

This thread reminds me of a childhood experience. If you don’t mind my rambling bit, it may shed a light on a sub’s (at least one’s) idiosyncrasies.

I was in elementary school and visiting my friend. Her mother gave her two lollipops to share. One was green apple and the other cherry flavored. Her mother told my friend that - because I was the guest - I should choose. So my friend offered me the choice. My thought process went something like this:

Oh! Green Apple! My very favorite, the most awesome flavor ever! Certainly my very sweet friend would want that one. I choose the red cherry one. We eat our lollies. After we are done, my friend whispers to me: “Was the cherry one really good?”… and it comes out that cherry was her favorite flavor.

My point with this bit is that sometimes when we guess at what another person wants, we are wrong. Now, please don’t go accusing me of learning this lesson for myself, as that child. That would be giving me far too much credit. I am a work in progress you could say. I still catch myself doing exactly this: attempting to guess (I am often right, swear) at another’s preference… but I digress.

As stated by openyoureyes, the red flag is his lie. Perhaps this is a growing opportunity/path laid out before you. Perhaps - if you saw fit - you could start your lesson plans and mold him in the way you see fit.

[Jennifer Williams]

Wow, everyone, thank you so much for your responses! Haha, believe me, we have communicated with each other, at length, about this. He knows what I want (blunt honesty) and I know what he wants (to always give me what I want). I think it's just a matter of putting into practice what we talk about (not so easy). I am always trying to understand him better; though I've had "bottom" partners before, he is the first truly submissive person I've ever been with (and I hope the only *cute face*); it's ingrained in him like his fingerprints. He's told me exactly what most of you have said, but it still made me smile to see that so many others have been in the same shoes; sometimes just knowing other people go through similar experiences makes you feel better about them. The lollipop story describes it exactly, thank you, doe.

[bip0lar]

see, that journal idea could be the thing if worked on. The way I thought of it would be lists: things i like, things you like as well as things i THINK you like. Ask him to make those three lists and go through them, once on your own so you can absorb them, and then once with him. It clears out the wrong/unclear spots, as well as allows you something solid to go back to. And I'm not saying our likes and wants are set in stone, but at the same time it can be your way of giving a treat to him, a reward if you will, if you can find something on that list that can be an alternative to what you might have liked to do. Like, not necessarily a plan B, but a plan Aii, if you see what I mean. At the end of the day, I'm sure you as well will figure out how important it is to you. If you see you can't let it go, luckily for you being the Domme you can play the card "well, if you want to make me happy, really truly happy, as you say, do what i ask and be truthful." It might not work the first time, but repetition and, depending on your style, punishment, can also do the trick.

[Pearlgem]

Yes, no point asking him his preferences at the point when he's faced with the possibility of not acquiescing to yours. Is that really a lie, to say you're prefer to walk even though your feet hurt, when you're a loving submissive? It's just being a loving submissive. Task him to list preferences honestly at a neutral time and sort out that ice cream thing once and for all!

[skittish doe]

Ahhh, but do not neglect the significance of the deliciousness found in an interaction that follows along the path of:
“Yes, subbie, I know what you wanted. *pet, pet* But I am telling you now *snaps your fingers* that the other one is the one you are getting.” <~ a really yummy way to be directed into your submissive side – to feel it a little deeper… IMHO.

The value of knowing the truthful wants, wishes and desires of your sub are evident in the above interaction. Perhaps if he saw the value… he would be more motivated to comply. (Not that I would ever doubt your sub’s desires to please you, mind.) Just saying, that perhaps he hasn’t noticed the delicious treat awaiting his (hard to work out) honesty.

[brwneydgirl]

Honestly, JW...I'm not sure he CAN stop this. Or that he wants to stop it....he may feel that as much as you ask that he be honest with you, that you may still want something he's not crazy about and will always feel compelled to give you everything he can.

I do understand where you're coming from. I do. But I TOTALLY understand his behavior...it feels natural to him and it feels right. No matter that he's not up for a stroll around the block. YOU are. He just can't help it. (I know you know but...it's just my take)

[fetishdj]

[B][COLOR="pink"]<<thinks its becuase he simply like to submit and be pleasing to her. Shrugs. Omg maby he is a submissive who would have thunk.

Like maby its like the scoprion and the fox parable.

I think the problem here is that she wants to please him as well as him pleasing her but suspects he is not getting as much out of the relationship as she is and that concerns her. He may enjoy submission but if his submission comes at a cost where he loses his sexual pleasure as a result?

As for journals...it seems to work for some...its never worked for me, (mainly becuase the dominants that ask for them expect somthinng that they could have got by simply asking, redundancy doesnt accomplish much or change my answers to questions), and most likely if your not hearing what you wish to hear from him in real life, dont expect to suddenly start hearing it in a journal. In fact if anything, in my experience, submissives have a tendency to eaither use the journel as some kind of topping from the bottom tool, or they write what they think the domme wishes to hear or some combination of the two.

The point of journalling is that some subs feel more confident expressing themselves in writing than they are verbally. You are clearly more confident in verbal communication (many women are, especially when it comes to talking about feelings) but many men don't like entering into an intense conversation about emotions because it is a battle they never win (and, yes, I know it is not a battle, at least not to a woman's PoV but it is endemic in the male psyche to see everything as a challenge and things which threaten to burst thier ego should be avoided). So, sometimes, a written journal can be beneficial because it allows more honest and open sharing of feelings. Also, you can get a deeper level of reflection and consideration when you write about something a short while after it is done than you can talking about it immediately and the Dom/me who reads the journal has more time to consider and reflect on it.

Plus, an added side effect, the sub has a physical record of their development as a sub and the Dom/me has a record of their development as a Dom/me (both in thier own journals and those of their subs). You can go back and look at previous entries and see a definite change in attitudes and practise.

[Jennifer Williams]

I think the problem here is that she wants to please him as well as him pleasing her but suspects he is not getting as much out of the relationship as she is and that concerns her. He may enjoy submission but if his submission comes at a cost where he loses his sexual pleasure as a result?

*laughs* Thanks, fetishdj, but his lack of sexual pleasure isn't a worry *smug smile*. I know how to please him that way- a man's cock just can't lie. It's the other, regular life stuff I'm worried about.

The point of journalling is that some subs feel more confident expressing themselves in writing than they are verbally. You are clearly more confident in verbal communication (many women are, especially when it comes to talking about feelings) but many men don't like entering into an intense conversation about emotions because it is a battle they never win (and, yes, I know it is not a battle, at least not to a woman's PoV but it is endemic in the male psyche to see everything as a challenge and things which threaten to burst thier ego should be avoided).

LMAO, do I have your permission to quote this?

So, sometimes, a written journal can be beneficial because it allows more honest and open sharing of feelings. Also, you can get a deeper level of reflection and consideration when you write about something a short while after it is done than you can talking about it immediately and the Dom/me who reads the journal has more time to consider and reflect on it.

Yes. My little one hates to talk. I have spent our entire relationship training him to communicate (which does not always include talking; we have lots of body signals and such that have clear meaning for us, also). I think this is just the next step for us, and a journal is at least worth a try. He's chosen to write me letters about particular issues in the past, and that worked well, so I think I will try this idea.

I've also tried "pointing out stuff immediately when it happens" training technique, which worked rather well yesterday. I had to interrupt our entire conversation in the middle of shopping to focus on it, but I think it was worth it. He got my point, apologized, and then I let him try again. Then he smiled. : P So we will see.

[fetishdj]

You can quote it if you like. Its not like I'm getting paid for any writing on here

Hmmm, I am not quite so submissive when it comes to food choices as Doe. I state what I like. If I get it, fine, if someone else wants it, I am happy to let them take it. But at least they know they are getting a treat I wanted

[DowntownAmber]

I can see where this can get sticky: his "truth" is that he genuinely wants to please you, and walking with you (albeit on sore feet) is still preferable to staying at home when you expressed a desire for company. The truth you're curious about, on the other hand, is sometimes what he would actually want as an individual if you weren't a contributing factor to his decision making.

If I am understanding correctly, I can see where you, as the Domme, understand and appreciate his submission but are interested in knowing about him and his preferences more specifically and individually at times. There is a caretaker aspect and a protective aspect to being the one "in charge" and how can we care for a sub if we don't know accurately what they want and need and think about as well?

Sometimes it's a matter of making your desire actually be their act of decision making. For example, you might call your sub and say, "I've had a hard day today, so I want you to take me to dinner when I get home." He knows you well, after all you've been together for awhile, so he knows your favorite places to go and will likely choose one of those places or will ask you where you want to go. So instead tell him, "I'm interested in going out tonight. Take me somewhere I've never been, and I'll expect you to order for us when we get there so I don't have to worry about it. I don't want to have to stress over a single decision, so your job is to treat me to your favorites tonight."

As J's sub I know the couple of pieces of lingerie or outfits of mine he really likes me to wear for him, and I am happy to put them on to please him. LOVE IT. However, there's also a deep satisfaction in being told to choose something or plan something, to treat him to something I like and to find that my choice makes him happy too.

It's tough being a Dom, being the decision maker and the lead all of the time, and one thing I think a lot of subs fail to see is that stepping up with feedback and honest preferences is oftentimes a very real gift to the ones being served.

[fetishdj]

Sometimes it's a matter of making your desire actually be their act of decision making. For example, you might call your sub and say, "I've had a hard day today, so I want you to take me to dinner when I get home." He knows you well, after all you've been together for awhile, so he knows your favorite places to go and will likely choose one of those places or will ask you where you want to go. So instead tell him, "I'm interested in going out tonight. Take me somewhere I've never been, and I'll expect you to order for us when we get there so I don't have to worry about it. I don't want to have to stress over a single decision, so your job is to treat me to your favorites tonight."

As J's sub I know the couple of pieces of lingerie or outfits of mine he really likes me to wear for him, and I am happy to put them on to please him. LOVE IT. However, there's also a deep satisfaction in being told to choose something or plan something, to treat him to something I like and to find that my choice makes him happy too.

It's tough being a Dom, being the decision maker and the lead all of the time, and one thing I think a lot of subs fail to see is that stepping up with feedback and honest preferences is oftentimes a very real gift to the ones being served.

Sometimes, being asked to arrange something can also be very scary... but then it gives you an idea of what it may be like to be a Dom and the stress and pressure that has... But I agree that ordering a sub to make a decision may work...

[devilishsub]

I wrote a nice long response but than the internet ate it
The cliff notes version:
I'm a pretty decisive and opinionated while still being submissive. I can be that way because:
1. If he didn't want my opinion he wouldn't ask for it.
2. Lying, including lies of omission results in serious punishment. It's mutually beneficial for us to be honest with each other. He can't fully control me without knowing how I feel and that includes any pre existing issues like sore feet. It's his decision whether or not I experience pain or pleasure (this bit is at the core of the issue for me).
3. I know that giving my opinion doesn't mean it's my decision. When I give my opinion it isn't always followed.
4. There are things that one of us is indifferent about and it's understood that the one that cares can make the decision.
5. There are things we disagree on and we work out a mutually satisfying arrangement.
6. We discuss every new thing at least twice, once right afterward and once later on after we've digested the experience.


In any case lying isn't something that's ok to let go. If self sacrifice is a need for him, by all means indulge it on your terms.
Example
"Would you like to go for a walk?"
"Yes mistress but my feet are sore."
"Alright you can come" and you make it shorter if you like or "No stay home and get better"

[Jennifer Williams]

*hugs all of you* So many great suggestions, so much good advice!

I can see where this can get sticky: his "truth" is that he genuinely wants to please you, and walking with you (albeit on sore feet) is still preferable to staying at home when you expressed a desire for company. The truth you're curious about, on the other hand, is sometimes what he would actually want as an individual if you weren't a contributing factor to his decision making.

Exactly.

If I am understanding correctly, I can see where you, as the Domme, understand and appreciate his submission but are interested in knowing about him and his preferences more specifically and individually at times. There is a caretaker aspect and a protective aspect to being the one "in charge" and how can we care for a sub if we don't know accurately what they want and need and think about as well?

100%

Sometimes, being asked to arrange something can also be very scary.

Agree completely. He does not handle desicion-making well; I love to decide everything, so in this way we go together well. I just feel that in order to make the best decisions, I need to have all of the information. I think stressing to him that he is, in no way, making any decisions and that I'm just asking for information from him will help.

devilishsub, I can't say I'm glad the internet ate your post (I hate when that happens); but I have to say your abridged version is extremely useful. I think I'm going to print it, especially numbers 1,2, and 3. It's just beautiful.

Of course we were going for a walk anyway. But if he's going to suffer for my sake, I want to know about it.

[denuseri]

I think the problem here is that she wants to please him as well as him pleasing her but suspects he is not getting as much out of the relationship as she is and that concerns her. He may enjoy submission but if his submission comes at a cost where he loses his sexual pleasure as a result?

Then they should sit down and talk about it in a feedback session.

The point of journalling is that some subs feel more confident expressing themselves in writing than they are verbally.

So what? They can't go through their life "journeling" everything to communicate effectively so why should one think that it will solve anything, especially when written communication lacks the other 90% of information human beings exchange when they talk to each other face to face...it's pretty obvious to me that a miscommunication or trust issue is involved when "journeling" is sought as a solution to a communication issue or problem.

You are clearly more confident in verbal communication (many women are, especially when it comes to talking about feelings) but many men don't like entering into an intense conversation about emotions because it is a battle they never win (and, yes, I know it is not a battle, at least not to a woman's PoV but it is endemic in the male psyche to see everything as a challenge and things which threaten to burst thier ego should be avoided).

Who said anything about a conversation having to be about "emotions" per say, or "intense" :the dominant partner should be quite capable of directing the conversation anyway if they are affriad of open and honest communication or "uncomfortable" about a paticular topic for whatever reason...especially a conversation with someone who they hold dominion over...if they cant talk to the person they hold at their mercy how the heck will they be able to talk to anyone else.

Of course if thats the case...the dominant may not be so dominant when it comes to self control and self confidence etc then..and hence may not be as dominant a they think they are.

So, sometimes, a written journal can be beneficial because it allows more honest and open sharing of feelings.

Quite the opposite in fact. Its not like the submissive is writting in a diary that they know no one is going to read.

Also, you can get a deeper level of reflection and consideration when you write about something a short while after it is done than you can talking about it immediately and the Dom/me who reads the journal has more time to consider and reflect on it.

No one said anyone had to speak about anything imedieately after or that the dominant would have to respond to anything imedieately.

Plus, an added side effect, the sub has a physical record of their development as a sub and the Dom/me has a record of their development as a Dom/me (both in thier own journals and those of their subs). You can go back and look at previous entries and see a definite change in attitudes and practise.

One can see anything they think they want to see when reading such things too.

[fetishdj]

Originally Posted by fetishdj
I think the problem here is that she wants to please him as well as him pleasing her but suspects he is not getting as much out of the relationship as she is and that concerns her. He may enjoy submission but if his submission comes at a cost where he loses his sexual pleasure as a result?


Then they should sit down and talk about it in a feedback session.

I never said they shouldn't do this as well.

The point of journalling is that some subs feel more confident expressing themselves in writing than they are verbally.

So what? They can't go through their life "journeling" everything to communicate effectively so why should one think that it will solve anything, especially when written communication lacks the other 90% of information human beings exchange when they talk to each other face to face...it's pretty obvious to me that a miscommunication or trust issue is involved when "journeling" is sought as a solution to a communication issue or problem.

You seem to have a massive problem with journalling, in such a way as I suspect some bad experience in the past. Certainly they way you talk about it suggests you do not trust any information in written form.

Talking face to face is great (and I am not saying it should not be done as well) but it can be an issue for some. Assuming that there is a trust issue is somewhat generalising, more often there is an issue with shyness or eloquence in spoken communication.

You are clearly more confident in verbal communication (many women are, especially when it comes to talking about feelings) but many men don't like entering into an intense conversation about emotions because it is a battle they never win (and, yes, I know it is not a battle, at least not to a woman's PoV but it is endemic in the male psyche to see everything as a challenge and things which threaten to burst thier ego should be avoided).

Who said anything about a conversation having to be about "emotions" per say, or "intense" :the dominant partner should be quite capable of directing the conversation anyway if they are affriad of open and honest communication or "uncomfortable" about a paticular topic for whatever reason...especially a conversation with someone who they hold dominion over...if they cant talk to the person they hold at their mercy how the heck will they be able to talk to anyone else.

Who said it was the Dominant person who may have the issue? I am thinking more of the sub who may not feel as if they can be as open with their Dom/me as they would like to be in person. Its sometimes hard, especially for men, especially sub men, to share thier feelings about something. It is often easier in those situations to let the Dominant one take control, subsuming their own desires for the pleasure of the Dominant. If done in a particularly subtle manner, the Dominant in question may never even notice this is going on.

Now, with time and careful handling a Domme who does notice this may well be able to train a sub to speak frankly when given permission - during a face to face feedback session. However, for some this may not be possible straight away and the ability to share in a less fraught situation may be beneficial.

Of course if thats the case...the dominant may not be so dominant when it comes to self control and self confidence etc then..and hence may not be as dominant a they think they are.

This is another gross generalisation. Any Dominant who asks a sub to write a journal is therefore not as dominant as they think they are?

Everything discussed here is a tool which can be used. Face to face communication, journalling, e-mails, mobile phones etc are all means of communication which any Dominant may choose to use or ignore as they wish. It all depends on the needs of the relationship at a particular time. As the relationship grows, some tools may be needed less and less while others may find more use. Some relationships may work perfectly without the need for written communication whereas others may require more work. You could argue that couples who are the former are maybe better suited to each other but I am not sure this is necessarily the case. In my experience, every relationship needs work and this work is made easier by some of the tools available.

So, sometimes, a written journal can be beneficial because it allows more honest and open sharing of feelings.

Quite the opposite in fact. Its not like the submissive is writting in a diary that they know no one is going to read.

No, they are writing something deeply personal which they hope will allow someone special to them access to thier deeper thoughts. I don't write anything personal or deep in my diary because I know my own mind and do not feel the need to record any of it for my own personal recollection. I record it so others may read it and hopefully know me better.
[/quote]

Also, you can get a deeper level of reflection and consideration when you write about something a short while after it is done than you can talking about it immediately and the Dom/me who reads the journal has more time to consider and reflect on it.

No one said anyone had to speak about anything imedieately after or that the dominant would have to respond to anything imedieately.

The majority of this sort of talk takes place immediately after the event. 'How was it for you?' is probably one of the most common questions asked, the reason why it is a cliche...

Plus, an added side effect, the sub has a physical record of their development as a sub and the Dom/me has a record of their development as a Dom/me (both in thier own journals and those of their subs). You can go back and look at previous entries and see a definite change in attitudes and practise.

One can see anything they think they want to see when reading such things too.

There is always room for self delusion but this applies to any form of communication. But if you forget emotions and feelings for a moment and look merely at practical stuff, is it not useful for a Dominant to have something they can review to see how well particular types of play worked? Ok, they may get this from the sub verbally but will they get it in a form which they can remember all the details of (unless they sit and take notes)? Will the sub necessarily remember all the details such as 'the strap on my crotch was digging in too much, it was distracting' so that the Domme can remember to adjust that strap next time? This is all about improvement and development - two things no Dominant nor sub should be able to say they are not in need of.

[BryansGrrrl]

I just wanted to share a quick story from this morning that I think is appropos.

I was making our morning coffee and didn't have enough sugar for two cups. I usually take 3 spoons of sugar in my coffee and He takes 2. I had 2 and a little more. I made His coffee with the 2 spoons and had the "little bit more" in mine. When He found out that I'd put almost no sugar in mine He became very upset and told me that He didn't want me to sacrifice anything (specifically enjoying my coffee) for Him.

I told Him that my drink was fine and He should drink His before it got cold. He tried to hand me His cup to drink and I refused. He threatened to dump it out if I wouldn't drink the coffee with the sugar in it.

I began to cry, saying that I WANTED Him to have the sugar, that I wanted His coffee to be perfect and please don't make me cry about this, as it made me happy to give Him a good cup of morning joe.

He drank the coffee. He said it was the best cup of coffee I'd ever made Him.

And even though it is such a small, tiny, and silly thing in retrospect... I did REALLY cry when He threatened to dump out that coffee. And I enjoyed mine just as much because I knew that I had chosen to give up my sugar so He could have His.

I said to Him as He held me, "I will always sacrifice my desires for yours". And I really meant it. Making Him happy is what makes me happy... even if it means I don't get any sugar in my coffee, or I have to eat sushi 3 times in a week, or my feet hurt, or I don't want to put away the laundry.

[Jennifer Williams]

That was adorably sweet, Lisa. Thank you so much for sharing that. : )

Don't get me wrong. I love those kinds of things. He does that all the time. My issue was that he was hiding it- how can I appreciate his submission if he hides it? And I understand his thinking, too- I can only be fully happy if I know that he's happy, too, so he wants to hide his misery. The problem came in when this made me think he genuinely liked something that he didn't, or, in the cases where I really do need a second person's opinion (there are quite a few things in life that he knows more about than I do; in those cases, I want to know his thoughts!) But, when I look back on the level of communication we had in the beginning of our relationship, and how hugely it has improved and grown since then, I think this is just the next "roadblock" for us to get over. It hasn't been an issue lately, but next time it comes up, I have so many new ways to approach it thanks to all of you! : )

[Jennifer Williams]

Who said anything about a conversation having to be about "emotions" per say, or "intense" :the dominant partner should be quite capable of directing the conversation anyway if they are affriad of open and honest communication or "uncomfortable" about a paticular topic for whatever reason...especially a conversation with someone who they hold dominion over...if they cant talk to the person they hold at their mercy how the heck will they be able to talk to anyone else.

Of course if thats the case...the dominant may not be so dominant when it comes to self control and self confidence etc then..and hence may not be as dominant a they think they are.

I'm sorry, but to me dominance is more than simply forcing a person into having a conversation (or doing anything) that they don't want to. I can talk until I'm exhausted, but unless he responds honestly, it's pointless. And you can't force a person to feel comfortable by ordering them to; that is the kind of situation that has to be approached delicately and on their terms until you're able to guide them to the point you wish them to be at.

For my little one, speaking his emotions or thoughts verbally is a terrifying thing. Me simply ordering him to not be afraid isn't going to work. You only dominate a person as far as they are willing to submit, and you never actually control someone else; they are choosing to submit to you. So I feel it is my job, as his domme, to help him find the root of the issue and to guide him in the direction I want with patience, pushing him just to the edge of where he wants to go, which is in this case, speaking his mind honestly even if he thinks I might not like what he has to say.

At no point am I asking him to make any decisions, either. I just need all of the information in order to make the proper decision, and his thoughts and feelings are part of the information that I need. That doesn't mean he gets to make any choices about what happens; it just means that if we're doing something he doesn't like, I want to know that (like how I know he hates to visit my mother, but he's not getting out of that one, ever).

[denuseri]

You seem to have a massive problem with journalling, in such a way as I suspect some bad experience in the past. Certainly they way you talk about it suggests you do not trust any information in written form.

Not at all, you are making assumptions or misinterpeting what I have said now based solely upon what I have written....see how text can be misleading yet?

Talking face to face is great (and I am not saying it should not be done as well) but it can be an issue for some. Assuming that there is a trust issue is somewhat generalising, more often there is an issue with shyness or eloquence in spoken communication.

Which is why it should be worked upon perhaps? (learning how to communicate effectively is paramount to any relationship yes?)

Who said it was the Dominant person who may have the issue?

If they try to rely solely upon written comunication I am saying they may have an issue.

I am thinking more of the sub who may not feel as if they can be as open with their Dom/me as they would like to be in person.

If they cannot be open with the person in whom's hands they place their very life, who then can they be open with? Ahh see there is clear evidence of a trust issue perhaps.

Its sometimes hard, especially for men, especially sub men, to share thier feelings about something. It is often easier in those situations to let the Dominant one take control, subsuming their own desires for the pleasure of the Dominant. If done in a particularly subtle manner, the Dominant in question may never even notice this is going on.

Yep. But it applies to both sexes.

Now, with time and careful handling a Domme who does notice this may well be able to train a sub to speak frankly when given permission - during a face to face feedback session. However, for some this may not be possible straight away and the ability to share in a less fraught situation may be beneficial.

Sure of course...I never said they couldnt, just pointed out the pitfalls to avoid with "journeling" as the prime way of comunication.

This is another gross generalisation. Any Dominant who asks a sub to write a journal is therefore not as dominant as they think they are?

Not what I said...again it appears as if written communication is leaving to much to error huh?

Everything discussed here is a tool which can be used. Face to face communication, journalling, e-mails, mobile phones etc are all means of communication which any Dominant may choose to use or ignore as they wish. It all depends on the needs of the relationship at a particular time. As the relationship grows, some tools may be needed less and less while others may find more use. Some relationships may work perfectly without the need for written communication whereas others may require more work. You could argue that couples who are the former are maybe better suited to each other but I am not sure this is necessarily the case. In my experience, every relationship needs work and this work is made easier by some of the tools available.

Yep.



No, they are writing something deeply personal which they hope will allow someone special to them access to thier deeper thoughts.

Maby, maby not.

I don't write anything personal or deep in my diary because I know my own mind and do not feel the need to record any of it for my own personal recollection. I record it so others may read it and hopefully know me better.

So you say,,,,thats you I hope it works well for you.

The majority of this sort of talk takes place immediately after the event. 'How was it for you?' is probably one of the most common questions asked, the reason why it is a cliche...

It doesnt have to, it can also take place at some other time.

There is always room for self delusion but this applies to any form of communication. But if you forget emotions and feelings for a moment and look merely at practical stuff, is it not useful for a Dominant to have something they can review to see how well particular types of play worked? Ok, they may get this from the sub verbally but will they get it in a form which they can remember all the details of (unless they sit and take notes)? Will the sub necessarily remember all the details such as 'the strap on my crotch was digging in too much, it was distracting' so that the Domme can remember to adjust that strap next time? This is all about improvement and development - two things no Dominant nor sub should be able to say they are not in need of.[/QUOTE]

If the strap digging in was what was really important to the person I am sure they would remember it. That goes for the rest as well. Sure if the dominant wishes to record it they can thats their perogative...I was just pointing out what to avoid and apparently by the way you and others have reacted...proved my own point as to the effectivness ( or lack there of) of written communication.

[denuseri]

I'm sorry, but to me dominance is more than simply forcing a person into having a conversation (or doing anything) that they don't want to.

Cool we have that in common then, becuase I also believe dominance is about way way more than that too. BTW I didn't say anything about forcing anyone to do anything, SSC.

I can talk until I'm exhausted, but unless he responds honestly, it's pointless.

Exactly! There in lays the crux of the problem and no ammount of journeling will change it in my experience.

And you can't force a person to feel comfortable by ordering them to; that is the kind of situation that has to be approached delicately and on their terms until you're able to guide them to the point you wish them to be at.

Again I never said anything about forcing anyone. Looks like my point about written comunications lack of effectivness is proved again.

For my little one, speaking his emotions or thoughts verbally is a terrifying thing. Me simply ordering him to not be afraid isn't going to work. You only dominate a person as far as they are willing to submit, and you never actually control someone else; they are choosing to submit to you. So I feel it is my job, as his domme, to help him find the root of the issue and to guide him in the direction I want with patience, pushing him just to the edge of where he wants to go, which is in this case, speaking his mind honestly even if he thinks I might not like what he has to say.

Sounds like some verbal comunication trust building excersises are in order then.

At no point am I asking him to make any decisions, either.

That may be true...but it also may not be the way he is interpeting what you are saying when you ask him such things. Of course you won't know what he was thinking unless you explain yourself to him and get him to respond honestly.

I just need all of the information in order to make the proper decision, and his thoughts and feelings are part of the information that I need. That doesn't mean he gets to make any choices about what happens; it just means that if we're doing something he doesn't like, I want to know that (like how I know he hates to visit my mother, but he's not getting out of that one, ever).

Yep. I wasn't sugesting it be otherwise. I don't know how you got the idea that I was...unless that is written communication isn't as effective as some would like it to be.