Finding that fine balance

[fetishdj]

[B][COLOR="pink"]<<thinks its becuase he simply like to submit and be pleasing to her. Shrugs. Omg maby he is a submissive who would have thunk.

Like maby its like the scoprion and the fox parable.

I think the problem here is that she wants to please him as well as him pleasing her but suspects he is not getting as much out of the relationship as she is and that concerns her. He may enjoy submission but if his submission comes at a cost where he loses his sexual pleasure as a result?

As for journals...it seems to work for some...its never worked for me, (mainly becuase the dominants that ask for them expect somthinng that they could have got by simply asking, redundancy doesnt accomplish much or change my answers to questions), and most likely if your not hearing what you wish to hear from him in real life, dont expect to suddenly start hearing it in a journal. In fact if anything, in my experience, submissives have a tendency to eaither use the journel as some kind of topping from the bottom tool, or they write what they think the domme wishes to hear or some combination of the two.

The point of journalling is that some subs feel more confident expressing themselves in writing than they are verbally. You are clearly more confident in verbal communication (many women are, especially when it comes to talking about feelings) but many men don't like entering into an intense conversation about emotions because it is a battle they never win (and, yes, I know it is not a battle, at least not to a woman's PoV but it is endemic in the male psyche to see everything as a challenge and things which threaten to burst thier ego should be avoided). So, sometimes, a written journal can be beneficial because it allows more honest and open sharing of feelings. Also, you can get a deeper level of reflection and consideration when you write about something a short while after it is done than you can talking about it immediately and the Dom/me who reads the journal has more time to consider and reflect on it.

Plus, an added side effect, the sub has a physical record of their development as a sub and the Dom/me has a record of their development as a Dom/me (both in thier own journals and those of their subs). You can go back and look at previous entries and see a definite change in attitudes and practise.

[Jennifer Williams]

I think the problem here is that she wants to please him as well as him pleasing her but suspects he is not getting as much out of the relationship as she is and that concerns her. He may enjoy submission but if his submission comes at a cost where he loses his sexual pleasure as a result?

*laughs* Thanks, fetishdj, but his lack of sexual pleasure isn't a worry *smug smile*. I know how to please him that way- a man's cock just can't lie. It's the other, regular life stuff I'm worried about.

The point of journalling is that some subs feel more confident expressing themselves in writing than they are verbally. You are clearly more confident in verbal communication (many women are, especially when it comes to talking about feelings) but many men don't like entering into an intense conversation about emotions because it is a battle they never win (and, yes, I know it is not a battle, at least not to a woman's PoV but it is endemic in the male psyche to see everything as a challenge and things which threaten to burst thier ego should be avoided).

LMAO, do I have your permission to quote this?

So, sometimes, a written journal can be beneficial because it allows more honest and open sharing of feelings. Also, you can get a deeper level of reflection and consideration when you write about something a short while after it is done than you can talking about it immediately and the Dom/me who reads the journal has more time to consider and reflect on it.

Yes. My little one hates to talk. I have spent our entire relationship training him to communicate (which does not always include talking; we have lots of body signals and such that have clear meaning for us, also). I think this is just the next step for us, and a journal is at least worth a try. He's chosen to write me letters about particular issues in the past, and that worked well, so I think I will try this idea.

I've also tried "pointing out stuff immediately when it happens" training technique, which worked rather well yesterday. I had to interrupt our entire conversation in the middle of shopping to focus on it, but I think it was worth it. He got my point, apologized, and then I let him try again. Then he smiled. : P So we will see.

[denuseri]

I think the problem here is that she wants to please him as well as him pleasing her but suspects he is not getting as much out of the relationship as she is and that concerns her. He may enjoy submission but if his submission comes at a cost where he loses his sexual pleasure as a result?

Then they should sit down and talk about it in a feedback session.

The point of journalling is that some subs feel more confident expressing themselves in writing than they are verbally.

So what? They can't go through their life "journeling" everything to communicate effectively so why should one think that it will solve anything, especially when written communication lacks the other 90% of information human beings exchange when they talk to each other face to face...it's pretty obvious to me that a miscommunication or trust issue is involved when "journeling" is sought as a solution to a communication issue or problem.

You are clearly more confident in verbal communication (many women are, especially when it comes to talking about feelings) but many men don't like entering into an intense conversation about emotions because it is a battle they never win (and, yes, I know it is not a battle, at least not to a woman's PoV but it is endemic in the male psyche to see everything as a challenge and things which threaten to burst thier ego should be avoided).

Who said anything about a conversation having to be about "emotions" per say, or "intense" :the dominant partner should be quite capable of directing the conversation anyway if they are affriad of open and honest communication or "uncomfortable" about a paticular topic for whatever reason...especially a conversation with someone who they hold dominion over...if they cant talk to the person they hold at their mercy how the heck will they be able to talk to anyone else.

Of course if thats the case...the dominant may not be so dominant when it comes to self control and self confidence etc then..and hence may not be as dominant a they think they are.

So, sometimes, a written journal can be beneficial because it allows more honest and open sharing of feelings.

Quite the opposite in fact. Its not like the submissive is writting in a diary that they know no one is going to read.

Also, you can get a deeper level of reflection and consideration when you write about something a short while after it is done than you can talking about it immediately and the Dom/me who reads the journal has more time to consider and reflect on it.

No one said anyone had to speak about anything imedieately after or that the dominant would have to respond to anything imedieately.

Plus, an added side effect, the sub has a physical record of their development as a sub and the Dom/me has a record of their development as a Dom/me (both in thier own journals and those of their subs). You can go back and look at previous entries and see a definite change in attitudes and practise.

One can see anything they think they want to see when reading such things too.

[fetishdj]

Originally Posted by fetishdj
I think the problem here is that she wants to please him as well as him pleasing her but suspects he is not getting as much out of the relationship as she is and that concerns her. He may enjoy submission but if his submission comes at a cost where he loses his sexual pleasure as a result?


Then they should sit down and talk about it in a feedback session.

I never said they shouldn't do this as well.

The point of journalling is that some subs feel more confident expressing themselves in writing than they are verbally.

So what? They can't go through their life "journeling" everything to communicate effectively so why should one think that it will solve anything, especially when written communication lacks the other 90% of information human beings exchange when they talk to each other face to face...it's pretty obvious to me that a miscommunication or trust issue is involved when "journeling" is sought as a solution to a communication issue or problem.

You seem to have a massive problem with journalling, in such a way as I suspect some bad experience in the past. Certainly they way you talk about it suggests you do not trust any information in written form.

Talking face to face is great (and I am not saying it should not be done as well) but it can be an issue for some. Assuming that there is a trust issue is somewhat generalising, more often there is an issue with shyness or eloquence in spoken communication.

You are clearly more confident in verbal communication (many women are, especially when it comes to talking about feelings) but many men don't like entering into an intense conversation about emotions because it is a battle they never win (and, yes, I know it is not a battle, at least not to a woman's PoV but it is endemic in the male psyche to see everything as a challenge and things which threaten to burst thier ego should be avoided).

Who said anything about a conversation having to be about "emotions" per say, or "intense" :the dominant partner should be quite capable of directing the conversation anyway if they are affriad of open and honest communication or "uncomfortable" about a paticular topic for whatever reason...especially a conversation with someone who they hold dominion over...if they cant talk to the person they hold at their mercy how the heck will they be able to talk to anyone else.

Who said it was the Dominant person who may have the issue? I am thinking more of the sub who may not feel as if they can be as open with their Dom/me as they would like to be in person. Its sometimes hard, especially for men, especially sub men, to share thier feelings about something. It is often easier in those situations to let the Dominant one take control, subsuming their own desires for the pleasure of the Dominant. If done in a particularly subtle manner, the Dominant in question may never even notice this is going on.

Now, with time and careful handling a Domme who does notice this may well be able to train a sub to speak frankly when given permission - during a face to face feedback session. However, for some this may not be possible straight away and the ability to share in a less fraught situation may be beneficial.

Of course if thats the case...the dominant may not be so dominant when it comes to self control and self confidence etc then..and hence may not be as dominant a they think they are.

This is another gross generalisation. Any Dominant who asks a sub to write a journal is therefore not as dominant as they think they are?

Everything discussed here is a tool which can be used. Face to face communication, journalling, e-mails, mobile phones etc are all means of communication which any Dominant may choose to use or ignore as they wish. It all depends on the needs of the relationship at a particular time. As the relationship grows, some tools may be needed less and less while others may find more use. Some relationships may work perfectly without the need for written communication whereas others may require more work. You could argue that couples who are the former are maybe better suited to each other but I am not sure this is necessarily the case. In my experience, every relationship needs work and this work is made easier by some of the tools available.

So, sometimes, a written journal can be beneficial because it allows more honest and open sharing of feelings.

Quite the opposite in fact. Its not like the submissive is writting in a diary that they know no one is going to read.

No, they are writing something deeply personal which they hope will allow someone special to them access to thier deeper thoughts. I don't write anything personal or deep in my diary because I know my own mind and do not feel the need to record any of it for my own personal recollection. I record it so others may read it and hopefully know me better.
[/quote]

Also, you can get a deeper level of reflection and consideration when you write about something a short while after it is done than you can talking about it immediately and the Dom/me who reads the journal has more time to consider and reflect on it.

No one said anyone had to speak about anything imedieately after or that the dominant would have to respond to anything imedieately.

The majority of this sort of talk takes place immediately after the event. 'How was it for you?' is probably one of the most common questions asked, the reason why it is a cliche...

Plus, an added side effect, the sub has a physical record of their development as a sub and the Dom/me has a record of their development as a Dom/me (both in thier own journals and those of their subs). You can go back and look at previous entries and see a definite change in attitudes and practise.

One can see anything they think they want to see when reading such things too.

There is always room for self delusion but this applies to any form of communication. But if you forget emotions and feelings for a moment and look merely at practical stuff, is it not useful for a Dominant to have something they can review to see how well particular types of play worked? Ok, they may get this from the sub verbally but will they get it in a form which they can remember all the details of (unless they sit and take notes)? Will the sub necessarily remember all the details such as 'the strap on my crotch was digging in too much, it was distracting' so that the Domme can remember to adjust that strap next time? This is all about improvement and development - two things no Dominant nor sub should be able to say they are not in need of.

[BryansGrrrl]

I just wanted to share a quick story from this morning that I think is appropos.

I was making our morning coffee and didn't have enough sugar for two cups. I usually take 3 spoons of sugar in my coffee and He takes 2. I had 2 and a little more. I made His coffee with the 2 spoons and had the "little bit more" in mine. When He found out that I'd put almost no sugar in mine He became very upset and told me that He didn't want me to sacrifice anything (specifically enjoying my coffee) for Him.

I told Him that my drink was fine and He should drink His before it got cold. He tried to hand me His cup to drink and I refused. He threatened to dump it out if I wouldn't drink the coffee with the sugar in it.

I began to cry, saying that I WANTED Him to have the sugar, that I wanted His coffee to be perfect and please don't make me cry about this, as it made me happy to give Him a good cup of morning joe.

He drank the coffee. He said it was the best cup of coffee I'd ever made Him.

And even though it is such a small, tiny, and silly thing in retrospect... I did REALLY cry when He threatened to dump out that coffee. And I enjoyed mine just as much because I knew that I had chosen to give up my sugar so He could have His.

I said to Him as He held me, "I will always sacrifice my desires for yours". And I really meant it. Making Him happy is what makes me happy... even if it means I don't get any sugar in my coffee, or I have to eat sushi 3 times in a week, or my feet hurt, or I don't want to put away the laundry.

[Jennifer Williams]

That was adorably sweet, Lisa. Thank you so much for sharing that. : )

Don't get me wrong. I love those kinds of things. He does that all the time. My issue was that he was hiding it- how can I appreciate his submission if he hides it? And I understand his thinking, too- I can only be fully happy if I know that he's happy, too, so he wants to hide his misery. The problem came in when this made me think he genuinely liked something that he didn't, or, in the cases where I really do need a second person's opinion (there are quite a few things in life that he knows more about than I do; in those cases, I want to know his thoughts!) But, when I look back on the level of communication we had in the beginning of our relationship, and how hugely it has improved and grown since then, I think this is just the next "roadblock" for us to get over. It hasn't been an issue lately, but next time it comes up, I have so many new ways to approach it thanks to all of you! : )

[denuseri]

You seem to have a massive problem with journalling, in such a way as I suspect some bad experience in the past. Certainly they way you talk about it suggests you do not trust any information in written form.

Not at all, you are making assumptions or misinterpeting what I have said now based solely upon what I have written....see how text can be misleading yet?

Talking face to face is great (and I am not saying it should not be done as well) but it can be an issue for some. Assuming that there is a trust issue is somewhat generalising, more often there is an issue with shyness or eloquence in spoken communication.

Which is why it should be worked upon perhaps? (learning how to communicate effectively is paramount to any relationship yes?)

Who said it was the Dominant person who may have the issue?

If they try to rely solely upon written comunication I am saying they may have an issue.

I am thinking more of the sub who may not feel as if they can be as open with their Dom/me as they would like to be in person.

If they cannot be open with the person in whom's hands they place their very life, who then can they be open with? Ahh see there is clear evidence of a trust issue perhaps.

Its sometimes hard, especially for men, especially sub men, to share thier feelings about something. It is often easier in those situations to let the Dominant one take control, subsuming their own desires for the pleasure of the Dominant. If done in a particularly subtle manner, the Dominant in question may never even notice this is going on.

Yep. But it applies to both sexes.

Now, with time and careful handling a Domme who does notice this may well be able to train a sub to speak frankly when given permission - during a face to face feedback session. However, for some this may not be possible straight away and the ability to share in a less fraught situation may be beneficial.

Sure of course...I never said they couldnt, just pointed out the pitfalls to avoid with "journeling" as the prime way of comunication.

This is another gross generalisation. Any Dominant who asks a sub to write a journal is therefore not as dominant as they think they are?

Not what I said...again it appears as if written communication is leaving to much to error huh?

Everything discussed here is a tool which can be used. Face to face communication, journalling, e-mails, mobile phones etc are all means of communication which any Dominant may choose to use or ignore as they wish. It all depends on the needs of the relationship at a particular time. As the relationship grows, some tools may be needed less and less while others may find more use. Some relationships may work perfectly without the need for written communication whereas others may require more work. You could argue that couples who are the former are maybe better suited to each other but I am not sure this is necessarily the case. In my experience, every relationship needs work and this work is made easier by some of the tools available.

Yep.



No, they are writing something deeply personal which they hope will allow someone special to them access to thier deeper thoughts.

Maby, maby not.

I don't write anything personal or deep in my diary because I know my own mind and do not feel the need to record any of it for my own personal recollection. I record it so others may read it and hopefully know me better.

So you say,,,,thats you I hope it works well for you.

The majority of this sort of talk takes place immediately after the event. 'How was it for you?' is probably one of the most common questions asked, the reason why it is a cliche...

It doesnt have to, it can also take place at some other time.

There is always room for self delusion but this applies to any form of communication. But if you forget emotions and feelings for a moment and look merely at practical stuff, is it not useful for a Dominant to have something they can review to see how well particular types of play worked? Ok, they may get this from the sub verbally but will they get it in a form which they can remember all the details of (unless they sit and take notes)? Will the sub necessarily remember all the details such as 'the strap on my crotch was digging in too much, it was distracting' so that the Domme can remember to adjust that strap next time? This is all about improvement and development - two things no Dominant nor sub should be able to say they are not in need of.[/QUOTE]

If the strap digging in was what was really important to the person I am sure they would remember it. That goes for the rest as well. Sure if the dominant wishes to record it they can thats their perogative...I was just pointing out what to avoid and apparently by the way you and others have reacted...proved my own point as to the effectivness ( or lack there of) of written communication.

[Jennifer Williams]

Who said anything about a conversation having to be about "emotions" per say, or "intense" :the dominant partner should be quite capable of directing the conversation anyway if they are affriad of open and honest communication or "uncomfortable" about a paticular topic for whatever reason...especially a conversation with someone who they hold dominion over...if they cant talk to the person they hold at their mercy how the heck will they be able to talk to anyone else.

Of course if thats the case...the dominant may not be so dominant when it comes to self control and self confidence etc then..and hence may not be as dominant a they think they are.

I'm sorry, but to me dominance is more than simply forcing a person into having a conversation (or doing anything) that they don't want to. I can talk until I'm exhausted, but unless he responds honestly, it's pointless. And you can't force a person to feel comfortable by ordering them to; that is the kind of situation that has to be approached delicately and on their terms until you're able to guide them to the point you wish them to be at.

For my little one, speaking his emotions or thoughts verbally is a terrifying thing. Me simply ordering him to not be afraid isn't going to work. You only dominate a person as far as they are willing to submit, and you never actually control someone else; they are choosing to submit to you. So I feel it is my job, as his domme, to help him find the root of the issue and to guide him in the direction I want with patience, pushing him just to the edge of where he wants to go, which is in this case, speaking his mind honestly even if he thinks I might not like what he has to say.

At no point am I asking him to make any decisions, either. I just need all of the information in order to make the proper decision, and his thoughts and feelings are part of the information that I need. That doesn't mean he gets to make any choices about what happens; it just means that if we're doing something he doesn't like, I want to know that (like how I know he hates to visit my mother, but he's not getting out of that one, ever).

[denuseri]

I'm sorry, but to me dominance is more than simply forcing a person into having a conversation (or doing anything) that they don't want to.

Cool we have that in common then, becuase I also believe dominance is about way way more than that too. BTW I didn't say anything about forcing anyone to do anything, SSC.

I can talk until I'm exhausted, but unless he responds honestly, it's pointless.

Exactly! There in lays the crux of the problem and no ammount of journeling will change it in my experience.

And you can't force a person to feel comfortable by ordering them to; that is the kind of situation that has to be approached delicately and on their terms until you're able to guide them to the point you wish them to be at.

Again I never said anything about forcing anyone. Looks like my point about written comunications lack of effectivness is proved again.

For my little one, speaking his emotions or thoughts verbally is a terrifying thing. Me simply ordering him to not be afraid isn't going to work. You only dominate a person as far as they are willing to submit, and you never actually control someone else; they are choosing to submit to you. So I feel it is my job, as his domme, to help him find the root of the issue and to guide him in the direction I want with patience, pushing him just to the edge of where he wants to go, which is in this case, speaking his mind honestly even if he thinks I might not like what he has to say.

Sounds like some verbal comunication trust building excersises are in order then.

At no point am I asking him to make any decisions, either.

That may be true...but it also may not be the way he is interpeting what you are saying when you ask him such things. Of course you won't know what he was thinking unless you explain yourself to him and get him to respond honestly.

I just need all of the information in order to make the proper decision, and his thoughts and feelings are part of the information that I need. That doesn't mean he gets to make any choices about what happens; it just means that if we're doing something he doesn't like, I want to know that (like how I know he hates to visit my mother, but he's not getting out of that one, ever).

Yep. I wasn't sugesting it be otherwise. I don't know how you got the idea that I was...unless that is written communication isn't as effective as some would like it to be.