What is topping from the bottom?

[leah06]

When I don't know a phrase I look it up on Wikipedia or elsewhere and usually I get a good working definition, but I don't understand this at all. How does this differ from negotiating? Does it mean being manipulative? So many of these interactions seem to involve saying one thing and meaning another, or having different layers of meaning, or doing one thing but signifying something else, so I don't know what this is in particular or why it's so bad to do.

[bambina]

Well it's basically the submissive giving orders. For example, when it comes to spanking, the spanker is supposed to be the one in charge. Gaging how hard to hit. Where to hit. When to hit. And with what to hit. But let's say the sub called the shots on all of that.

"Slap my ass hard. No thats too hard. You know what, I changed my mind, use the brush instead. Yeah that's right. Now tell me I'm a dirty girl. You're hitting me too hard again. I said stop that. Okay now kiss me and hold me tight."

And all the while the Dom is going "Yes Dear. Yes Dear. Yes Dear."

Who's really in charge here? The point of submission is to give up power to someone else so that they lose control over what happens to them in intimate situations. But, when a sub 'Tops from the Bottom', there is virtually no power exchange. The Dom is following all of the subs rules without pushing any limits or adding his own flare in anything. Almost a reversal of roles except the sub is still on the receiving end.

[DIXIE LASS]

As far as I'm concerned, Bambino just gave a world-class answer. It's going to be hard to top it (pun me no puns). Seriously, her answer really is good and probably ought to go in the glossary. I haven't checked to see what it says about this subject. I do think there is a way for Bambino to add it in the A-Z forum and I am suggesting she do so. To me, there is also a silent "topping from the bottom" that is a form of "bratting". It's what we do when we want/need/desire something else but yet we don't want to verbalize it. Deep in our psyche is the belief that if we say it out loud, it will "ruin" the mood or cool the action or de-intensify the scene. We want our partner to read our mind and just know to do something else.....or do it different. This one can be really dangerous to a relationship because if said partner fails, we usually respond with bitchiness, crankiness, and 24 hr-a-day pms. That partner, being human, usually lessens his/her dominant role in order to get back into our good graces. At that point, we have "topped them from the bottom" and usually lose a degree of respect for them. God, why am I trying to answer this. We are dealing with deep, deep psycho-sexual, psycho-babble stuff here. ROTFLMFAO at myself. I promise you this. When you do "top someone from the bottom"------you'll know it---even if they don't.

Dixie

[bambina]

Why thank you Dixie.

I don't know if it's good enough to go in a glossary or anything though.

[AdrianaAurora]

When I don't know a phrase I look it up on Wikipedia or elsewhere and usually I get a good working definition, but I don't understand this at all. How does this differ from negotiating? Does it mean being manipulative? So many of these interactions seem to involve saying one thing and meaning another, or having different layers of meaning, or doing one thing but signifying something else, so I don't know what this is in particular or why it's so bad to do.

*smiles*

Try this thread.

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=16876

Great minds question alike, don't they, rotflmao.


Adriana

[DIXIE LASS]

Bambina, I swear I am going to quit misspelling your name. I promise. Dixie

[sadiej]

i think there is also a subtler form of "topping from the bottom" in manipulation. some subs may say and do the seemingly right submissive things. but they try to manipulate and control their Master or Mistress through bad behavior.

they desire attention and/or punishment. and by pretending to be disobedient, they manipulate their Master into giving them what they want.

i see this as undermining the control of a Master and disrupting the flow of the relationship and connection. if my Master is constantly having to correct my behavior then he is not the one controlling the relationship and i am not truly submitting.

every sub makes mistakes and sometimes struggles with disobedience. but a sub that is constantly disobeying is trying to fill their own needs for their own pleasure. that is not fulfilling to both partners in this relationship.

when i truly surrender, Master is free to lead and take more control... honest control.

when i manipulate, it is like stealing that control away from him. and it is not an honest submission at all.

[bind_me_obey_me]

i think there is also a subtler form of "topping from the bottom" in manipulation. some subs may say and do the seemingly right submissive things. but they try to manipulate and control their Master or Mistress through bad behavior.

they desire attention and/or punishment. and by pretending to be disobedient, they manipulate their Master into giving them what they want.

i see this as undermining the control of a Master and disrupting the flow of the relationship and connection. if my Master is constantly having to correct my behavior then he is not the one controlling the relationship and i am not truly submitting.

every sub makes mistakes and sometimes struggles with disobedience. but a sub that is constantly disobeying is trying to fill their own needs for their own pleasure. that is not fulfilling to both partners in this relationship.

when i truly surrender, Master is free to lead and take more control... honest control.

when i manipulate, it is like stealing that control away from him. and it is not an honest submission at all.

This is a wonderful post and so very true. How and why sub's push back is often up for debate. Is it because they want to be punished because they like it? I think sometimes it's just that you can't quite let go and this is often true of young subs (not in age, but in experience) the fear of giving up complete control is quite scary sometimes. And so pushing back gives them a foothold to hold onto. Questioning why they feel the need to do this can be difficult, is it because they don't' trust their Master enough? All I can say is when you do give it up completely, when you don't manipulate and try and get what you want, it's much more rewarding and incredibly special. Think about whether you truly trust Him/Her and if you can't answer that, you're not ready.

[MacGuffin]

Bambina seems to be making the common assumption that the Dom is the top and the submissive is the bottom. It may be worth pointing out this need not be the case. BD(DS)SM is a collective term for different insterests.

D - Domination - Dom
S - Submission - Sub
S - Sadism - Top
M - Masochism - Bottom

Although not common it is quite possible for somebody to be both the Dom and the Bottom. I am sure there are many cases of powerful leaders and noblemen who enjoyed being spanked. They do not reliquish the control and authority of the Dom and do tell the top what to do and how to administer the pain.

Although bambina's explanation would in most cases be correct, I personally tend more to sadie's version where the submissive seeks to manipulate (not a direct instruction) the dominant.

Topping from the bottom is often considered as something bad, but it need no be. It depends on the situation and degree. If, in play, the submissive says "I hope you are not going to use the flogger on my ass" this can be seen as a helpful hint to the Dom on what the sub wants and what to do next. But if the sub is trying to take away the decision making and lead from the Dom, that then is of course another matter.

[Myst]

I'd agree with what most have said so far. Topping from the bottom can occur in a number of ways, from the extreme and obvious pointed out by bambina to the slightly less obvious but equally damaging subtle approach pointed out by MacGuffin. Essentially the submissive takes control away from the dominant, maintaining the power, and shifting the process into a Top and bottom dynamic rather then one between a Dominant and submissive. And it is worthy to note that the term is often thrown about by inexperienced Dom/mes to describe strong willed subs who aren't afraid to speak their mind, when in fact that is a failure of the Dom/me to remain assured in themselves and their power in the situation. That isn't to say that being outspoken to the point of "brattiness" can't be topping from the bottom. I believe this is what MacGuffin is referring to. The idea that a submissive will think somethink like "I would really like a spanking." So, the submissive remembers that the last time she did [insert action] the Dom/me responded with a spanking, and so she goes and does that action to try and receive a spanking. Here she has basically tried to manipulate the Dom/me into giving her what she wants rather then being honest with the Dom/me and requesting a spanking and leaving that option up to them to decide if/when/how that spanking would be administered. Just my two cents.

Cheers, Myst

[Kostly]

I kinda find a bit of humor in seeing subs try to Dom. They try so hard to spank the way they think their sub wants to be spanked...

[deigja]

As many stated before, I think topping from the bottom can be very harmful to a relationship, nevertheless I have caught myself from time to time falling into a behaviour that I cannot deny was topping from the bottom.
Without even thinking about it I tried to provoke a certain reaction from my former master. Still, whenever I realized what I did, it made me feel really bad.

I didn´t intentionally try to take control, still I unintentionally tried to lead my master into something I didn´t know he wanted.
I thought a lot about why I did this, and why I felt bad about it afterwards. I didn´t even try to provoke something I liked. Sometimes I felt crazy because I had the strong urge to make him do something i really didn´t like at all, to hurt me...
I think part of me was afraid at that time, afraid of my own likings and afraid of beeing hurt, afraid of beeing hurt because I got involved to quickly.And I was convinced that I would be hurt anyway so I tried to get past the hurt as quickly as I could.

If he had not felt my topping from the bottom and set it to a sudden stop by just ignoring every attempt from me, I would propably have fallen back into my previous behaviour of mistrusting every person, especially every man that came to close to me.
In retrospekt I think I was just looking for an excuse to strengthen the walls again, that were slowly breaking around me.

I have come across people who think that anybody topping from the bottom is no real submissive, people who told me that, somebody who had topped from the bottom just once should better rethink his or her role in BDSM.
Even if I am convinced that topping from the bottom is harmful to a relationship and disturbs the dynamic of said relationship, I think it is up to the couple in question to deal with it. Dom should be aware of the possibility of sub trying to top, And sub should reflect on her own behaviour some times.
Relationships are something very complex and putting blame on anybody without knowing the background is no option.

Sorry for my ramblings, this is a topic that touches something deep inside me.

liz

[MacGuffin]

Not wanting to go off topic and merely wanting to add a new dimension to the thread, it may be worth asking why people top from the bottom. In my view if a sub under my control felt the need or had the ability to top from the bottom then I must be remiss in my responsibilities or capabilites somehow. Either I am not taking her needs into consideration or I have not controlled her and imposed my authority. Whatever way you cut it, something has gone wrong and in my view the buck stops with the dom. With power comes responsibility and obligation!

[icey]

i think topping from the bottom is one of those widely used loose bdsm 'terms'
what everyone has said would be considered topping from the bottom, but it depends on how you're particular r/ship works and what the individuals determine is acceptable or not.
as deigja said it can often be done without even the sub realising or intentionally doing it.

and how do we explain hard somethings we will never do limits? there the subs saying i WONT do this this this and that
or what about safewords? if a sub uses a safeword he/she is saying STOP isnt that also topping from the bottom in a sense? after all the subs the one with all the control in that situation.
if a sub needs a safeword in place with their Dom/me (putting aside play partys new partners etc) then you could argue that neither fully trust the judgement of the other in which case you're holding back somewhat and can never fully surrender total control/submission and if we take egs from previous posts unless you do, then that can also be considered a form of topping from the bottom.

but they're simply eg's and just my convoluted way of thinking lol ...its a vague term and imho they're really is no wrong or right or exact definition for it.

[shyslut]

Ive talked to someone about this topic before and they maintained that subs should be silent. That there should be no input from a sub on any given activity until after and only if it was asked for or it would be topping from the bottom.

When Im with my dom, granted I am new to bdsm and new to him but I talk alot. I tell him what i do like and what i dont like and how im feeling and what i think of the music. If im scared or if something hurts or it its kinda disappointing hehe I ask permission if I want to touch him.

Course then its up to my dom what he does after that. What hes going to do at any time is anyones guess hehe I was also thankful he didnt accede to all my wishes. There was a point where i was asking for more and after it was all over I was glad he hadn't lol I was also grateful for everything he did with my input as well as the bulk that he did without asking hehe

Maybe its different for some people but i love to communicate and it helps me feel close. I didnt feel manipulative.

[SubmissiveDoll]

Ive talked to someone about this topic before and they maintained that subs should be silent. That there should be no input from a sub on any given activity until after and only if it was asked for or it would be topping from the bottom.

When Im with my dom, granted I am new to bdsm and new to him but I talk alot. I tell him what i do like and what i dont like and how im feeling and what i think of the music. If im scared or if something hurts or it its kinda disappointing hehe I ask permission if I want to touch him.

Course then its up to my dom what he does after that. What hes going to do at any time is anyones guess hehe I was also thankful he didnt accede to all my wishes. There was a point where i was asking for more and after it was all over I was glad he hadn't lol I was also grateful for everything he did with my input as well as the bulk that he did without asking hehe

Maybe its different for some people but i love to communicate and it helps me feel close. I didnt feel manipulative.

Communication is very important. I'm extremely opinionated, and I share my thoughts and feelings. I realize that He certainly isn't going to give in to my every request. It just simply isn't in my personality to hold my thoughts to myself. I share. I do know that He listens, and takes my feelings to heart. At which point, He will decide if it's valid or not. If I hate a song that is on the radio... or if I'm apprehensive about a specific type of play. It's a line that we each must walk, I submit to His wishes, because He allows me the freedom to have my own.