why is the bdsm scene so narrow??

[Rhabbi]

lucyboy,

Maybe you should stop and ask why a Domme is willing to spend so much effoert correcting your misconceptions. Think.

[anonymouse]

lucyboy,

You wrote this earlier:

Thankyou for you're replies all of you. Wow this is refreshing. Whenever I have raised these subjects on other forums I usually receive a blizzard of anger from Dominant women who assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, and have no idea of what it is to be truly sub.

and later this:

I'm just so used to getting a negative response from Dommes when I raise this subject like I'm upsetting the status quo

Given that you've apparently broached your question in more than one other forum before here and that, by your own admission, you've stirred a lot of anger in dominant women, may I ask why you chose to post your question into the 'Questions for a Master/Mistress' forum? What I mean is, your question is one that is probably best answered by a submissive man. Have you spoken with other submissive men about your situation?

It seems to me that your experiences have all been with dominant women and, to a degree, you've approached them with the expectation they'd be hostile and "have no idea of what it is to be truly sub" (your words). You've said the same thing in various ways numerous times throughout this thread. Similarly, you've said you cannot understand a D/s dynamic in which sexual and/or physical attractiveness isn't a factor, and that's fine. Sex versus no-sex in BDSM relationships is often debated. There is no one answer and to speak in universals such as all Dommes or true submissives is something to avoid, unless you're looking to start an argument.

I'm not suggesting you're whole intent here was to start an argument but again I ask, why didn't you seek the answer to your question from fellow submissives when you plainly admit dominants have not been able to supply you with a satisfactory and sympathetic response? When I first read Natalie's response to you I was taken aback by her blunt answer. But, that's her manner and I have no issues with that. I happen to be a sucker for 'nice' men however, I don't like being played for a fool either.

That said, if you're genuine (and I'll continue to assume you are) I still think you'd have better luck in the swingers' scene. By its very nature, the swinging scene attracts women who enjoy sex and aggressively pursue it. Since sex seems to be the primary focus of your search and since BDSM doesn't always focus on sex, it seems logical then that your odds of success would be better in the swingers scene. That's my honest opinion, anyway.

Good luck!

anonymouse

[gloombunny]

Ok it sounds like you guys know NatalieD well and know she isn't being the spiteful Domme.

Heh. I'll admit to the insulting - I'm sure I could've phrased the things I said a lot more politely - but I don't think I'm being spiteful, and I'm definitely not a domme.

[lucyboy]

Diamondcontrol you make valid points, you're experience is obviously different from mine. But that is not surprising as life is complicated.

The fact that you know male subs who's submission is not sexual doesn't change the fact that for many subs their submission is sexual and emotional and the same can only be said for relatively few Dommes.

Don't get stuck on my use of the word sex, male subs are in many circumstances deemed not worthy of intimacy or a relationship of any kind beyond public play or a round of pain and humiliating domestic duties once in a while.

I think that it cannot be healthy for guys to to be hoping for something that they will never get.

Maybe it would be better all round if some subs stood up for themselves and refused to give their submission to Dommes who refused to acknowledge them as anything but a sub.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely! Maybe it would be better if we wrestled a little bit of power away from the Dommes as human beings with needs not as subs. Pipe dreams, nothing more.

It's never gonna happen but I don't see why this upsets people.

If I said the same about a female sub who was in relationship where her Dom didn't find her attractive.

If he expected expensive gifts, only used her for domestic duties and sent her packing before going to meet his vanilla girl friend you would probably all agree!

That scenario is appalling it stinks. It is pure exploitation on the guys part. The female sub should get shot of that guy as soon as possible and go and find a Dom who will adore her in all her submissive glory.

But when I change the genders. The reaction is well she is entitled to it and if the bloke is happy who am I to argue, so what if he wants more he should be happy getting something.........

There are double standards here.

There are many sub guys living unfulfilled lives and being exploited by women who use them to do the cleaning inflict a bit of pain and send them packing before she goes to meet her husband, female lover or Dom partner.

But this is seen as a positive thing not exploitation. 'You go girl', 'shes worth it' and 'he should consider himself lucky'.

Can you not see the hypocrisy in that??

Dragons Muse you are totally stuck on four words I used in everything I have written, which is allot as you can see. ALL and LIVING A LIE.

When I used the word 'all' I was referring to all men who desire more from women than Dom/sub. Guys who have a need of companionship, above and beyond their submission.

I agree maybe my use of the word ''all'' was not appropriate but considering the amount of words I have written, to grasp on to these 'four words' and not let go is to not see the woods for the trees.

I'm just a little cross dressing subbie boy and as such not infallible so don't condemn me for the use of four ever so slightly inappropriate words.

You keep talking about how I'm telling people they are ''living a lie''

I wasn't saying that at all, but to clarify my point I will retract that statement and put it another way.

Why go through life with you're emotional and sexual needs being unfulfilled, to do that is to live in a kind of limbo.

I can see I'm going to have to be very careful, if you guys are going to pick the odd line out of everything I write and accuse me of arrogance and sweeping generalizations.

But I realise how using the word ALL could be perceived. So I apologise for that but when I said ''why spend you're life living a lie'' it wasn't an accusation so much as a whimsical lament.

[TomOfSweden]

I think it's down to statistics. I think people in the BDSM scene are fairly liberal as to how a relationship should look. This is down to numbers. There are many more submissive men for every dominant woman than submissive woman for every dominant man.

This I think creates different cultures. Dominant men have to work harder than dominant women to get a partner, which means they need to work more on themselves to attract women. I think chances are pretty good the members of the two categories would be just as demanding, if they could get away with it.

We are social creatures, and we adapt out tastes after what is available. Lucyboy, your attitude seems to me to be fairly healthy and it would surprise me if you wouldn't find a woman to suit you if you look hard enough. And maybe you are right. Maybe the woman of your dreams won't be found in the BDSM scene.

None of the five long term slaves I've had through out my life have I met through any BDSM comunities. Me personally, I think it's a terrible place to meet future partners. Maybe it's a Stockholm thing.

Being dominant or submissive is something we are regardles scenery, labels or rubber clothing.

[anonymouse]

When I used the word 'all' I was referring to all men who desire more from women than Dom/sub. Guys who have a need of companionship, above and beyond their submission.

Buy a dog.

[lucyboy]

Anyway, I can see I'm upsetting people with what I'm saying so I will stop now. You all know my opinions on this topic.

If you want to ask me something about what I have said private me if you must then hopefully world war three will be avoided.

To everyone who has been supportive and understanding about my thread, thankyou very much.

I assure you I'm a genuine person and I have posted some pics to prove it. xxxx peace and love

PS:The pics of me dressed are not very good, I have a crap wig and they where taken on a phone. It was the fist time dressed and I was wearing someone else's clothes. The next pics of me will look fab

[tessa]

lucyboy, what a cutie-pie you are! Delightful! Can't wait to see the next set of fab pics.

I am distressed, however, that you would choose to stop the discussion you have going here. This is a community of strong opinions and even stonger people expressing those opinions. Not everyone can agree on each point made, no matter who is saying it. You hold this matter very close to heart, so when anyone says anything that seems to "attack" your position, of course you are going to see it as such. But I have been here for a bit now, and even when opinions differ greatly between members, respect and value for the other has prevailed in 9 out of 10 times. My guess is that if something you said is pointed out by another, it is only as a way to gain some more clarity and insight from you. And in that way, perhaps you shine new light on this subject for yourself? Just a thought.

Knowing that the journey can sometimes be difficult to navigate, I wish you nothing but all the best in your search for the One. May she be all you ever desired and more.

But please? Don't discontinue what is obviously a thoughtful, intelligent discourse on a subject from which many may truly benefit.

tessa

[Clevernick]

Agreeing with Tessa --

I don't think you're being offensive, lucyboy, just a little upset from your experience in a way that comes across as whiny.

I've certainly done the same myself when I'm feeling marginalized and put upon. But this group seems like an understanding bunch, and even those who have highlighted some of your words and said why they are too overgeneral, or why they disagree with them, have not been offended. And they mostly forgive the whiny-sounding bits and respond mostly to your good points.

And I think the discussion is helpful, so long as everyone's listening.

From another guy whose kink makes him unlikely to get what he wants any time soon, I'm wishing you the best of luck, and like I'm learning to have, PLENTY of patience and tolerance.

[lucyboy]

I understand Tessa and thankyou for being so nice but I seem to be rocking the boat a little bit and I don't want to make enemies or turn people against me.

Also people are not just airing their opinions, some people seem to be getting the impression I'm a bit of a moaning minnie and trouble maker which I'm not.

If that is how my posts are starting to sound I think it would be wise to nip it in the bud.

I hope you understand.

Of course if people really want to carry on the discussion I'm sure I wont be able to keep my gob shut. I suffer from foot in mouth disease.

Lets see what happens

[lucyboy]

Thanks Nick. As I said I'm a mouthy boy so I will probably pipe up if the discussion continues.

By the way is that Steven Colbert??

I never heard of him until Richard Dawkins was on his show, very funny. I thought he was for real at first.

I recently found a website called www.onegoodmove.org it introduced me to a whole world of Steven Colbert, Bill Maher and Jon Stewart clips.

American tv gets better and better, it's a shame we don't get this stuff in the UK. We only get crap like Friends, shiny happy people being shiny...yuck

Although we do get Curb You're Enthusiasm which is pure genius..

Brilliant, clever and witty stuff and they say Americans are stupid and don't get irony. Oh how wrong they are..

[Clevernick]

I think Americans were unable to understand irony until Jon Stewart came along. After he taught them what it was about, they were finally able to appreciate the wonder and the truthiness that is Colbert. He's also my age, an improv actor, and I do so want to be more like him. Like you I can't get him on the "telly" here in the UK so I have to check the internet frequently.

I really enjoyed your posts -- they're extremely complete and touchingly honest, yet I couldn't believe that you'd found such a narrow range of people on the scene.

Even in the short time I've been in two online communities, I've seen a wider range of desires than you mention in your list, and you've been looking for years! I wonder if you're somehow selecting the wrong people to begin with?

Also, check out the famous "Acid test" posting, widely available. I think it's somewhere on this forum, but I know it's here


This posting taught me a lot about why I was being blown off, despite my honest intentions -- I looked too much like the fakes described here. These tests err (very properly) on the side of caution, and I just got caught in the false positives. Maybe you are too.

You might find insights on that post (I did) on how not to act around potential dominant females too.

Best of luck,

[Dragon's muse]

It's never gonna happen but I don't see why this upsets people.

Just an observation, but you seem to be more upset that the rest of us are.




Why go through life with you're emotional and sexual needs being unfulfilled, to do that is to live in a kind of limbo.

But what i am trying to get across, apparently not doing a very good job of it, is that there are subs (male and female) whose needs are fulfilled by the non-sexual services that you consider exploitative. i know this will make you think i am even more of a bitch than you already do, but the only relationship your have the right or capability to judge is your own.

Just as there are some Domme's who desire an emotional, romantic, supportive relationship with their subs.

You are having a bit of trouble finding the right person for you. i sympathize with that.

i am a writer and editor. i believe that words are tools and should be used with precision. No apologies for that.

Bon chance,
muse

[Rhabbi]

Very nice pics lucyboy. remeber something, just because the local group is narrow, does not mean the whole world is.

[lucyboy]

Hello Dragon's muse. What you seem to be saying is I can't have an opinion. It's ok for Dommes to be as opinionated as they choose and demand what they want.

Well all I'm doing is claiming that right for myself, so shoot me.

As a writer you should know it's impossible to really know if another writer is upset or just calmly stating an opinion.

I can assure you I'm not upset but you seem to be by my opinions and I find usually when people get upset with me airing my views it is because I'm a sub guy.

If I was a Domme saying I deserve better and certain male sub behavior is wrong, I probably wouldn't be coming in for the flak you are aiming at me now.

I don't think you're a bitch. I think you are being unfair but not a bitch.

PS:I have already stated if the no sex caveat is mutual thats fine. It's the sheer volume of Dommes who use subs as gift buying domestics in the full knowledge that the sub wants more. That is what I'm criticising. This kind of exploitation derives it's power from the ''no sex'' rule. And I think it is a sad state of affairs..

[Dragon's muse]

Hello Dragon's muse. What you seem to be saying is I can't have an opinion. It's ok for Dommes to be as opinionated as they choose and demand what they want.

i never said that you could not have an opinion. Only that you really should not attempt to generalize and project YOUR opinion to others. Or judge others and their relationships by standards that you set for yourself.

Well all I'm doing is claiming that right for myself, so shoot me.

As a writer you should know it's impossible to really know if another writer is upset or just calmly stating an opinion.

I can assure you I'm not upset but you seem to be by my opinions and I find usually when people get upset with me airing my views it is because I'm a sub guy.

Actually, if i were upset, i can assure that there would be no "seem to be" about it.

If I was a Domme saying I deserve better and certain male sub behavior is wrong, I probably wouldn't be coming in for the flak you are aiming at me now.

I don't think you're a bitch. I think you are being unfair but not a bitch.

PS:I have already stated if the no sex caveat is mutual thats fine. It's the sheer volume of Dommes who use subs as gift buying domestics in the full knowledge that the sub wants more. That is what I'm criticising. This kind of exploitation derives it's power from the ''no sex'' rule. And I think it is a sad state of affairs..

As i have already said, no one puts a gun to these sub's heads and makes them go into and stay in a relationship that is not right for them. Perhaps, you should take up your issue with them.

Namaste,
rose

[lucyboy]

Nick I have found many diverse people on the net but you rarely get to meet women through a website and many online bdsm communities frown on using the personals to try to meet potential partners.

I know it defeats the object of having a profile but there is still a stigma around contacting someone you don't know through the personals section of a bdsm website.

It rarely results in rudeness but invariably you're memo is ignored and you will hear people bemoaning unsolicited contacts even if their profile says looking to meet.

It's funny this strange attitude does not exist on the t-girl sites I frequent and it is the opposite on gay websites where everyone is contacting each other.

Because of this I had to venture out of my comfort zone and actually get involved in the bdsm community for real and that is when it all narrows down and the rules start to be applied.

In the words of Jimmy Greaves...''It's a funny old game"

[lucyboy]

Namaste to you to, I haven't generalised apart from when I used the word ALL which I later retracted.

I still think you are applying double standards.

No one is putting a gun to the head of a submissive woman who is with a guy who exploits her but you wouldn't be so uncaring about another woman in a situation like that would you.

You would probably tell her yourself that she is worth more and she should kick the bum to the curb.

So why do you have a problem with what I'm saying???? It's not so different..

[Dragon's muse]

Namaste to you to, I haven't generalised apart from when I used the word ALL which I later retracted.

I still think you are applying double standards.

No one is putting a gun to the head of a submissive woman who is with a guy who exploits her but you wouldn't be so uncaring about another woman in a situation like that would you.

You would probably tell her yourself that she is worth more and she should kick the bum to the curb.

Actually, if she is voluntarily in whatever situation and not complaining, i would tell her no such thing. If she complained about it, i would tell her to either get out or stop complaining. i would say that to anyone in any unpleasant situation -- either change it or accept it. i found out a long time ago that unsolicited relationship advice is usually not well received.


So why do you have a problem with what I'm saying???? It's not so different..

OK, i'm done here. You are 100% right. Have a wonderful life.

[diamondcontrol]

Don't get stuck on my use of the word sex, male subs are in many circumstances deemed not worthy of intimacy or a relationship of any kind beyond public play or a round of pain and humiliating domestic duties once in a while.

Why are you assuming that the male subs don't crave a round of pain, humiliation, domestic duties? Many do.

I think that it cannot be healthy for guys to to be hoping for something that they will never get.

Have you heard of "The Secret" - if you send this negative attitude out into the world - you never will get anything merely because you don't expect to get anything.

Maybe it would be better all round if some subs stood up for themselves and refused to give their submission to Dommes who refused to acknowledge them as anything but a sub. . . .

I agree entirely. No sub, male or female, should ever give their submissions to a Dom/me who does not fulfill that sub's needs. I really find it impossible to believe I am the only Domme who thinks this way.

But when I change the genders. The reaction is well she is entitled to it and if the bloke is happy who am I to argue, so what if he wants more he should be happy getting something.........

There are double standards here.

Pardon me, but this is bull. I have seen no one in this thread say a person (male or female) should be happy/content with getting anything less than what that person wants in a relationship.

There are many sub guys living unfulfilled lives and being exploited by women who use them to do the cleaning inflict a bit of pain and send them packing before she goes to meet her husband, female lover or Dom partner.

But this is seen as a positive thing not exploitation. 'You go girl', 'shes worth it' and 'he should consider himself lucky'.

This is not exploitation if these are the ways in which a sub chooses to serve. If you don't choose to serve in this way, fine. A good Domme will use a sub in a way which best suits her and the individual sub. For example, I am corresponding with an attorney sub. Domestic chores would obviously play a minimal part of any service I would expect from him. I am also corresponding with another sub who longs to serve domestically. When I told him I am too possessive to ever share a sub, he "suggested" that perhaps I might instruct my sub to wash my friend's car when she comes to visit. Which actually brings me to the question - exactly how are you submissive? - you consider service, pain, submitting to a Domme's control and desires "unfulfilling" and "exploitation." Perhaps the others are correct in advising you to seek a vanilla woman.

Diamondcontrol

[Ruby]

Hi lucyboy,

Welcome to the forums!

My name is Ruby. I'm a switch.
A pet to my husband and a Miss to my sub.

I think it's great that you know the type of woman that you are seeking. I'd appreciate it if you didn't badmouth the type of women who don't interest you.
It goes under the old saying, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

Also I apologise if my criticism of the bdsm scene angers anyone but I'm being as honest as I can.

lucyboy, it's great that you are honest with your opinions. They are yours and no one is going to take them away from you.

Where you've continually gotten yourself into trouble is by attempting to place your opinions upon an entire group of people or to make declarations for others than yourself.

The fact that you know male subs who's submission is not sexual doesn't change the fact that for many subs their submission is sexual and emotional and the same can only be said for relatively few Dommes.

Who are you to make this claim?
It's backed up by what? A study, statics?

This may be an observation you've made based on the local groups you've encountered, but again, each group is different and a whole community cannot be judged by a single group's actions.

I have been submissive all my life ever since I was about 5 years old I loved bossy girls and would follow them around and provoke them into bullying me
...
So let me make myself clear, I am sexually submissive, so much so that I find it impossible to have an intimate or sexual relationship with a man, woman transvestite or transsexual unless that person is dominant.

Knowing yourself and want you want is a key step in finding the right partner. Go you!

I am completely incapable of having vanilla sex without the spice of domination, this means that I cannot find a partner so it causes allot of anguish at times, so please don't tell me I'm not a sub just because I don't fit into the narrow confines of the bdsm scene.

Okay, I won't tell you whether or not you are "a sub".
Only you can decide that for yourself.

PS:sorry for the long winded post and please don't reply with anger at my criticisms answer constructively please.

Constructive criticism:

1. If it's your opinion, please don't state it as a fact.

2. In my opinion: Your posts have been argumentative, whiny, passive-aggressive and often arrogant. They are long winded, attempting to prove yourself right with a barrage of information. If I was seeking a submissive partner for any type of activity, I would mark you off my list as requiring too much maintenance.

3. When you write long missives, expect other forum members to dissect them.

4. Ask yourself why you joined this forum and what you'd like to get out of it?
What type of friends do you want to make?
What would you like to accomplish?
What have you accomplished so far?
Did you get what you wanted?

Wishing you success,

Ruby

[lucyboy]

Spanking new pictures, it's me. I feel so sexy xxxxxx I hope you like them

PS:I have already defended my position enough times you are just repeating the same misinterpretations I have already dealt with. I might deal with you're posts later but I get the feeling this is spiraling away into bickering

[tessa]

I have already defended my position enough times you are just repeating the same misinterpretations I have already dealt with. I might deal with you're posts later but I get the feeling this is spiraling away into bickering

lucyboy, I have read through this thread a few times now. While I can appreciate your frustrations and your longing to find the right person for you, it is more difficult to appreciate your negativity towards the members here who are simply posting and trying to either guide you or simply point out the obvious misunderstandings that have come about in this thread, most notably by the original poster (that would be you).

While the free exchange of ideas and thoughts is the hallmark of our community here, I will not tolerate what many, including myself, see as threatening comments. And your comment above, especially the highlighted part, smacks of a threat, albeit a very mild one.

So, feel free to post your pics, feel free to ignore the good advice that has been so freely offered to you. But don't ever feel that you have the right, even in an casual comment kind of way, to threaten any of the members here. That is not what we are about here.

If you have any questions at all, please direct them to me in a PM as I have the idea that you might consider this "bickering" and I don't wish to bicker with you in any way.

Have a most lovely day.

tessa

ps. Nice blue outfit, by the way.

[Rhabbi]

nice pics lucyboy.

And as tessa said, we are not trying to bicker with you. We here your hurt and want to help.

[Carmenica Diaz]

The scene is as narrow or as broad as you wish.

Although it is becoming easier for women to express dominance, it is usually difficult as it appears "normal" for women to be passive and that's what we are subtly taught from a young age.

Perhaps the relationship comes first? And then the trust so you are comfortable to reveal desires.

I discovered my dominance through my first husband and it opened up a world that I didn't know existed! Now, could not imagine being the passive one in a relationship!

[Widget]

I have read this thread through and I think there are many well thought out points made here. However this thread is also becoming argumentative and that needs to end or I will lock it. Everyones point of view deserves respect and while you don't have to agree with it, some of the posts have come across as inciting.

Originally Posted by lucyboy
I have already defended my position enough times you are just repeating the same misinterpretations I have already dealt with. I might deal with you're posts later but I get the feeling this is spiraling away into bickering

Lucyboy if you would like to discuss anything further via pm with me I will be happy to answer that way but as tessa has said, no one here wishes to engage in bickering and I think that you would find a world of support in the members here for any issue you wish to discuss.

[lucyboy]

It seems to me that the word bickering is seen as a threat and insult on this forum but I don't know how that can be???

It is just an word that means argumentative.

If you all read the whole thread after I decided to end the conversation.

Tessa and others asked me to continue. I made two brief defenses of my view neither of which involved personal attacks or rudeness of anykind.

Then as Widget says it was all getting argumentative so I said I might deal with the replies but probably not and suddenly I'm being accused of bad behavior??

I was just trying to avoid exactly what Widget is trying to avoid and suddenly I'm an inconsiderate bad guy who wont accept freely offered advice and throw threats around!!!

Surely you are referring to someone else???

I don't understand.

I have threatened no one, I have not attacked anyone and the word bickering is just another way of saying argumentative.

What has everyone got so upset about????? Did I miss something?

When I said I might deal with you're posts later did you think I meant deal with them in a Goodfellas way??

It is not a threat?? To deal with means to sit down and type an answer not to put the reply in the trunk of my car, drag the reply out to the weeds and in Mafia lingo whack it.

Also the people I have defended my views to where not giving me advice they where mostly disagreeing with me and telling me that my views where wrong. I think it is only fair for me to defend my view in this circumstance.

It seems that what many of you where saying was cool at the beginning of the thread you now see as threatening negativity.

Why do you see Dragonsmuse, Diamondcontrols and Ruby's posts as totally reasonable and just offering advice but mine you have decided where negative argumentative and threatening.

Why be so positive all the way through the thread then find fault with the last few posts non of which involved insults, attacks or threats???

Is it me are are you finding negativity where I'm just passionately defending my view and threats where I'm just trying to do what Widget seems she wants me to do which is not to get involved in an argument???

[gloombunny]

You keep saying you're not attacking anyone, but that doesn't make it true. Just because you're doing it with a bit of indirectness and passive-aggressiveness doesn't mean you're not doing it.

Although I was surprised to find that anyone interpreted what you said as a threat. I thought "deal with your posts later" pretty plainly just meant "write up a proper response to them later".

[lucyboy]

Ok thankyou Natalie I appreciate that and I assure you you are wrong about me attacking anyone.

I have not, knowingly attacked anyone, I do not wish to attack anyone all I wanted to do was passionately defend my views.

I understand that many of you are picturing an angry little rejected man sitting here all lonely petulantly typing away with feelings of hurt in my heart.

Well that is not me it is a mirage that people are applying to my words.

I'm happy and not hurt, I'm positive not negative. I'm assertive not aggressive and I'm livin life to the full not being lonely and petulant.

Please people don't attach emotions to my words that are not there. Once again I assure you I'm not angry or attacking anyone.

Peace my lovlies xxx

[gloombunny]

No, see... when I say "even though you claim you're not, you really are attacking people", you're supposed to say something like "But I don't see where I attacked anyone. Can you point out some examples?" To just claim again that you're not attacking anyone is rather missing the point.

You accuse people of double standards and hypocrisy. That's an attack. You use straw-man arguments, ascribing unfair motivations to anyone who disagrees with you and then chewing them out for having unfair motivations. That, too, is an attack. You play martyr and bemoan how misperceived you are, which lets you indirectly label everyone who disagrees with you as an unreasonable bully. That's like some kind of fucked-up meta-attack on the entire conversation.

Actions speak louder than words, and words like "I'm positive not negative" and "I can assure you I'm not upset" are getting pretty drowned out here.