New Aestheism movements

[Thorne]

Not wanting to participate is both respect for one's own position, whether atheist or another religion,

Atheism is NOT a religion. It's not a belief system. It is a lack of belief in gods. That's ALL.

and respect for the religion doing the praying. It means you take that seriously too, that it is not unimportant flim-flam.

I disagree. Personally, I DO think prayer is unimportant flim-flam. As a means for getting what one wants it is tantamount to writing a letter to Santa Claus. True, prayer has been shown to have a calming effect on some people, similar to meditation, or taking a deep breath, or counting to ten. And such an effect can help people's bodies to, for example, fight off diseases more efficiently. Just like meditation. Or rest. Or soothing music.

But the prayer I argue against is those prayers which are inserted into governmental procedures, or public meetings by government entities (such as public schools). These prayers are prohibited by the Constitution of the United States, yet Christians (especially) insist that we are violating THEIR right to freedom of religion because we don't want them pushing their prayers into such venues! Or that they are being persecuted because they are ejected from a meeting for disrupting the meeting by "spontaneously" rising in prayer, loud and long.

As usual, these "followers of Jesus" have cherry-picked their beliefs, only following the rules that they agree with. They ignore the statement from Matthew 6:5-6:
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

In other words, keep it in church, and in your heart, where it belongs.

[thir]

Atheism is NOT a religion. It's not a belief system. It is a lack of belief in gods. That's ALL.

I do know that - bad phrasing. Sorry.

I disagree. Personally, I DO think prayer is unimportant flim-flam.

What I meant here was that I respect that the prayers take it seriously.

And that is one reason they should not try to force others into it as if it was just - nothing.
I think it was MMI who said what does it matter - it's just a prayer. I think it does, both ways.

But the prayer I argue against is those prayers which are inserted into governmental procedures, or public meetings by government entities (such as public schools). These prayers are prohibited by the Constitution of the United States, yet Christians (especially) insist that we are violating THEIR right to freedom of religion because we don't want them pushing their prayers into such venues! Or that they are being persecuted because they are ejected from a meeting for disrupting the meeting by "spontaneously" rising in prayer, loud and long.

As you know, I agree totally in this. Freedom in these matters as in others is the important thing.
The fight is where one person's freedom (as percieved) restrains that of another. And I think in this case the public space is the neutral space. You do not do BDSM for instance in a public place, for that reason.

But it will always be a matter of debate what you can or cannot do in a public space. But the other situations you mention are crystal clear: you do Not make a captive audience of other people by praying in such situations.

As usual, these "followers of Jesus" have cherry-picked their beliefs, only following the rules that they agree with. They ignore the statement from Matthew 6:5-6:
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

In other words, keep it in church, and in your heart, where it belongs.

Mostly I agree. But I would have no problem with for instance a muslim doing his or her praying on a little carpet in the corner of a room 5 times a day, or someone praying quietly somewhere, if there is no prayer room.

[Thorne]

But it will always be a matter of debate what you can or cannot do in a public space. But the other situations you mention are crystal clear: you do Not make a captive audience of other people by praying in such situations.

There are no proscriptions against public prayer in the US. If a group of people wanted to go into a public park and pray, loudly, they would be permitted as long as they are not interfering with other people's activities. Personally, I have no objection to this activity, provided it is available to ALL who want to pray. Including Christians, Jews, Muslims or any other religious group.

One thing that has happened in several communities around the US is that Christians, who have frequently performed prayer meetings similar to this, have tried to prevent those of other faiths from enjoying the same rights. To the point where the city government has had to restrict ALL faiths, including Christians, from using the park just so that the Christians can prevent OTHERS from using it. I also recall a case back in 2002 where a Christian community complained about the local mosque issuing their call to prayer, through loudspeakers, five times a day. Claiming it was a disturbance. Wound up that the city had to ban the use of Church bells on Sundays in order to stop the mosque. Not exactly the result the Christians wanted!

Mostly I agree. But I would have no problem with for instance a muslim doing his or her praying on a little carpet in the corner of a room 5 times a day, or someone praying quietly somewhere, if there is no prayer room.

I have no problem with it either. Many businesses make allowances for such things. But that Muslim is not forcing a public meeting to begin with a prayer, the way that many Christian communities do.

[thir]

There are no proscriptions against public prayer in the US. If a group of people wanted to go into a public park and pray, loudly, they would be permitted as long as they are not interfering with other people's activities. Personally, I have no objection to this activity, provided it is available to ALL who want to pray. Including Christians, Jews, Muslims or any other religious group.

Me neither, because you can walk away from it, and presumably there is room for everybody in a park. People do all kinds of things there, thai chi and whatnot, and that is fine. What I was thinking about was meeting where you have to attend, and other situations where you cannot walk away. Like starting a political meeting, which you have to attend, with a prayer.

One thing that has happened in several communities around the US is that Christians, who have frequently performed prayer meetings similar to this, have tried to prevent those of other faiths from enjoying the same rights. To the point where the city government has had to restrict ALL faiths, including Christians, from using the park just so that the Christians can prevent OTHERS from using it.

I would say it sounds childish, but actually few children behave that way.

I also recall a case back in 2002 where a Christian community complained about the local mosque issuing their call to prayer, through loudspeakers, five times a day. Claiming it was a disturbance. Wound up that the city had to ban the use of Church bells on Sundays in order to stop the mosque. Not exactly the result the Christians wanted!

But at least there was peace and quiet! Not a bad result, really.

I have no problem with it either. Many businesses make allowances for such things. But that Muslim is not forcing a public meeting to begin with a prayer, the way that many Christian communities do.

That's it.