Easter Questions

[IAN 2411]

Do you mean the moral code of the 10 commandments?

1. You shall have no other Gods but me.
2. You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
4. You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
5. Respect your father and mother.
6. You must not kill.
7. You must not commit adultery.
8. You must not steal.
9. You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.
10. You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.

Let’s be fair thir, that apart from first four that are only relevant to the religion of Moses, the other six are basic laws that even in those days most people adhered to. How big do you think those tablets of stone would have to be, to have written on them all it states in the bible? Moses had to walk off the mountain with these. I think that if the truth was known he went up the mountain with his papyrus and wrote them himself. Remember, Moses was brought up and educated by the Pharaohs and all the people he was leading were uneducated slaves. This leaves us with only hear say and the word of Moses that it had ever taken place.

Are we really born with evil and good? But what is that exactly? And how does that get into our genes?

I believe we have these senses not inside of us at birth, but when we are young and innocent the teachings we are given indoctrinates us with both.

Example: - teacher to a class full of infants, you must not kill it is evil, love thy neighbour...ok that’s all well and good saying that, but up until that point they were loving their neighbour, but the teacher has now has implanted in their mind, evil.

That is a little harsh and things are probably indoctrinated into the infant mind in more subtle ways, but you have to learn evil to know evil.

Maybe one problem is that in the absence of religious codes or any other commonly accepted codes many people go astray and do weird stuff, like killing other people, or wrecking the planet.

In most cases greed causes the going astray, take killing, it is for money, or because a person loves another and needs freedom. Killing in anger could be put down to the need of a better and quieter life, but it is still greed for something the killer has not got of some type. Very few crimes throughout the world are not related to greed, even wars.

To be sure survival is in our genes, but we simply no longer know how to live off the land. It does take skill and knowledge. Without electricity, heating, tools, very few people would know what to do. How many can farm? How many can hunt with weapons made off the land directly? How many people know what you can or cannot eat of what you may find?

I have no choice but disagree on this point thir, remember the aircraft that crashed on the mountain. The survivors were a mixed bunch of ordinary people of any street in the world. However after all the food on board the aircraft had been eaten, they turned to cannibalism and started to eat the flesh of the dead. A revolting thought? Yes it is, but that is survival being shown at its best. As I stated earlier, we all want to see the next sunrise.

I would like to point out that all the above is only my opinion, and in no way am I rubbishing anyones religious belief's.

Be well IAN 2411

[Thorne]

This leaves us with only hear say and the word of Moses that it had ever taken place.

Not even that. Evidence seems to indicate that Moses and the Exodus are complete fictions. They are the tales of priests used to teach their god's laws to the uneducated.

[thir]

5. Respect your father and mother.
6. You must not kill.
7. You must not commit adultery.
8. You must not steal.
9. You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.
10. You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.

Let’s be fair thir, that apart from first four that are only relevant to the religion of Moses, the other six are basic laws that even in those days most people adhered to.

I don't think so, different people different rules. As far as I know, with many tribes it is a sport to steal from each other, including women. Honor killings are an old system, as well as revenge killings. So are wars.

How big do you think those tablets of stone would have to be, to have written on them all it states in the bible? Moses had to walk off the mountain with these. I think that if the truth was known he went up the mountain with his papyrus and wrote them himself. Remember, Moses was brought up and educated by the Pharaohs and all the people he was leading were uneducated slaves. This leaves us with only hear say and the word of Moses that it had ever taken place.

Interesting thought. Where did Moses get his ideas from? Apparently these things were not self-evident, or there would have been no need to present them like that. He must have needed to unite the tribes as one people in much the same way as Mohammed did in his time. But from where did he get his ideas?? He did come from a polytheistic culture like the Egyptian one was at that time, and the Hebrews themselves were not mono-theistic.

As a matter of fact, the whole story about Moses is so interesting! Why did he do what he did? What about the 7 plagues? What happened with the Red Sea? And where on earth did he think he was going with all these people??

In most cases greed causes the going astray, take killing, it is for money, or because a person loves another and needs freedom. Killing in anger could be put down to the need of a better and quieter life, but it is still greed for something the killer has not got of some type. Very few crimes throughout the world are not related to greed, even wars.

So what can we do about it? Maybe stop having greed as a celbrated life-style, for one thing. Maybe start to value other things.

[Thorne]

Where did Moses get his ideas from? Apparently these things were not self-evident, or there would have been no need to present them like that. He must have needed to unite the tribes as one people in much the same way as Mohammed did in his time. But from where did he get his ideas?? He did come from a polytheistic culture like the Egyptian one was at that time, and the Hebrews themselves were not mono-theistic.

As a matter of fact, the whole story about Moses is so interesting! Why did he do what he did? What about the 7 plagues? What happened with the Red Sea? And where on earth did he think he was going with all these people??

As a matter of fact, the whole story about Moses seems to be fiction! There's no independent evidence that he ever existed, no evidence that there were ever Jews enslaved in Egypt, at least not in the vast numbers portrayed in the Bible, no evidence of a Hebrew Exodus, no evidence of millions of people spending 40 years in Sinai. Last I heard, even some Jewish scholars now doubt that Moses, even if he existed, ever wrote the first five books of the Bible, as has been traditionally believed. It's all myths and story telling, teaching tools for uneducated people. Aside from some of the more arcane dietary and clothing laws of the Bible, there is nothing in there that wasn't common in most of the earlier cultures around the world at the time. The Hebrews/Jews just adopted those that worked for them, changed those that needed to be changed to agree with their own beliefs, then wrote it up as if they invented it.

[thir]

As a matter of fact, the whole story about Moses seems to be fiction! There's no independent evidence that he ever existed, no evidence that there were ever Jews enslaved in Egypt, at least not in the vast numbers portrayed in the Bible, no evidence of a Hebrew Exodus, no evidence of millions of people spending 40 years in Sinai. Last I heard, even some Jewish scholars now doubt that Moses, even if he existed, ever wrote the first five books of the Bible, as has been traditionally believed. It's all myths and story telling, teaching tools for uneducated people. Aside from some of the more arcane dietary and clothing laws of the Bible, there is nothing in there that wasn't common in most of the earlier cultures around the world at the time. The Hebrews/Jews just adopted those that worked for them, changed those that needed to be changed to agree with their own beliefs, then wrote it up as if they invented it.

What I have a real problem with is the way in which science so often seems to be the victim of fads of one kind and another. Decades back, there were all these findings that this or that from the bible was now proven, or partly proven, or explained - by both Christian and non-Christian archelogists. This decade the fad seems to be that it is all just smoke and mirrors. I am extremely sceptical about these all-or-nothing waves.

Hold on to your hat Thorne - I believe in the bible! What I mean is, I do not believe that things written down there were taken completely out of the thin air. The archeologists now want us to believe that nothing happened, Moses did not excist, the jews were never in Egypt, nobody emigrated, it is all just a methaphor or allergory about freedom. I note that when archeologists are at loose ends, the word allegory thends to pop up a lot, because they know darn well that things are written down for a reason and they feel they have to come up with some sort of explanation.

Now, I believe that when something is written down, it is because something happened. It may be embellished, exaggerated, given a specific meaning, get garbled over the years, be partiallly inspired by myth (themselves distant account of who knows what) but they did not just get pulled out of thin air.

The latest is that no traces can be found of people wandering about in the dessert for 40 years - well, maybe that would be extremely difficult with tribes that had few things that would survive, and in a big dessert too. Maybe be they did not take 40 years to cross - why should they have? They say millions cannot survive in these areas with sheep and what not - well, maybe it wasn't millions - maybe it was thousands.

Some say thousands of jews were taken to Egypt as POWs in wars - there are always wars going on in these areas. Some say thousands more emigrated from Canaan to Egypt because there was a famine and Egypt was fertile. Maybe thousands left centuries later because of whatever natural disasters or plagues wreacked havoc in the country, and maybe Moses lead number of them out by way of a new, mono theistic religion and various promises of a better place.

Or maybe something different happened. But obviously (to me) something did.

[Thorne]

What I have a real problem with is the way in which science so often seems to be the victim of fads of one kind and another. Decades back, there were all these findings that this or that from the bible was now proven, or partly proven, or explained - by both Christian and non-Christian archelogists. This decade the fad seems to be that it is all just smoke and mirrors. I am extremely sceptical about these all-or-nothing waves.

First of all, one of the things that science does is to correct itself. You generate a hypothesis that explains the data, then find evidence to support your hypothesis. Very often that evidence will DISprove your hypothesis, so you have to change or discard it. That's how science works.

Second, you have to remember that, until very recently, the Bible was considered to be an archeological tool, and many scientists tried to prove its accuracy by digging through the Middle East. And there were indeed things in the Bible that were historically real. There are other things in the Bible that are obviously fictitious. And there are things in the Bible that are fictional stories based upon real events. Just like the movie Titanic was based upon an actual event, but the character Jack Dawson and the story around him is totally fictional.

Hold on to your hat Thorne - I believe in the bible! What I mean is, I do not believe that things written down there were taken completely out of the thin air. The archeologists now want us to believe that nothing happened, Moses did not excist, the jews were never in Egypt, nobody emigrated, it is all just a methaphor or allergory about freedom. I note that when archeologists are at loose ends, the word allegory thends to pop up a lot, because they know darn well that things are written down for a reason and they feel they have to come up with some sort of explanation.

Not wearing a hat! Oh no!

I never said nothing happened. Something probably DID happen. There may have been a group of people, the ancestors of the Hebrews, who emigrated from Egypt after a series of natural catastrophes. There may have been a person which the character of Moses is based on. But there is no evidence that the Moses of the Bible, like Jack on the Titanic, ever existed. And the story behind Moses, born of slaves, placed into the river, found by a princess, was a fairly common religious story that long preceded the Biblical account. Just like many of the stories of Jesus (virgin birth, son of a god, murder of innocent children, etc.) were told in heroic stories of other cultures before the rise of the Hebrews.

Now, I believe that when something is written down, it is because something happened. It may be embellished, exaggerated, given a specific meaning, get garbled over the years, be partiallly inspired by myth (themselves distant account of who knows what) but they did not just get pulled out of thin air.

Not true! Writers make things up out of thin air all of the time! Look at Mormonism, or Scientology. Both fabricated from nothing by their founders. Song writers make things up all of the time, having nothing to do with reality, just to entertain the crowds. Don't you think that bards and singers in ancient times were trying to entertain their listeners? Of course, it can be far more entertaining if there's just a hint of truth in there, if your listeners can recognize a place or a person. That doesn't make the story true, just more believable.

The latest is that no traces can be found of people wandering about in the dessert for 40 years - well, maybe that would be extremely difficult with tribes that had few things that would survive, and in a big dessert too. Maybe be they did not take 40 years to cross - why should they have? They say millions cannot survive in these areas with sheep and what not - well, maybe it wasn't millions - maybe it was thousands.

One thing that archeologists know is that people, ALL people, create garbage. Broken pottery, burned hides, shattered bones. And feces, of course. Even thousands of people create a lot of shit, every day. And they didn't just wander through the Sinai. The Bible claims they stayed in some areas for years. There would have to have been a LOT of garbage. Yet none can be found! Now you can say that maybe there were only hundreds, or dozens, small camps that would vanish in time, but such a small group of people would be unlikely to have enough warriors to conquer Canaan as the Bible says they did. The Bible says there were millions, but even many thousands would have left something behind.

Some say thousands of jews were taken to Egypt as POWs in wars - there are always wars going on in these areas. Some say thousands more emigrated from Canaan to Egypt because there was a famine and Egypt was fertile. Maybe thousands left centuries later because of whatever natural disasters or plagues wreacked havoc in the country, and maybe Moses lead number of them out by way of a new, mono theistic religion and various promises of a better place.

Virtually all of these suppositions are based on the Bible. There are no records in Egypt that correspond to these events. Sure, some Jews were taken as slaves. Probably mostly women and children, who would eventually have integrated into the Egyptian population. As someone above noted, there's some evidence that a tribe of mercenaries called the Habiru may have left Egypt at about the time of the Biblical Exodus, and this could be the foundation for the stories. But the point is, the stories in the Bible did not happen as they were written!