Occupy Wall Street Movement

[denuseri]

also, i wouldnt say the tea party and ows cancel each other out, but its a good example. In 2010, tea party candidates had a very strong showing, which reflects that grass roots organization is very much a force to be reckoned with.

Which shows that we can still have some hope that once conditions get bad enough human beings will rise up and seek the blood of tyrants to water that ole tree of liberty from time to time. The only problem is how at this stage even the Tea Party's demagoguery wasn't sufficient to allow it to maintain independence...publicly its precieved directly due to the media as having been swallowed in part or whole by the GOP. Which one may have failed to notice was plastered all over the media almost at the first mention of the Tea Party...even though it was initially a completely independent movement, the media "spin" made the reality conform to the lie.

Welcome to 1984 only clothed a bit differently.

[Omega22]

Which shows that we can still have some hope that once conditions get bad enough human beings will rise up and seek the blood of tyrants to water that ole tree of liberty from time to time..

democracy makes life of tyrants absolutely safe. instead of taking responsibility fro their actions tyrants just select random fools from big population and uses them as their own representatives, once something gets wrong all you need is to replace representative.

only solution today is going into anarchy, or else this situation will remain indefinitely

The real question is how to make a system that takes all the greed and other bad factors out of play or minimizes them.

current system is based on greed so if you take it out everything will collapse.
however we already had working system without greed in soviet CCCP.
it was quite good, but greed based systems are far more efficient than enthusiasm based systems when lots of resources are available.

Since resources are getting sacred there is no better option than communism, which favors laziness instead of diligence (which is synonym of greed) and if you are greedy then you are forced to feed all lazy ones around. This way resource consumption severely decreases.

[Thorne]

greed based systems are far more efficient than enthusiasm based systems when lots of resources are available.

"Enthusiasm" based systems don't work if there's no reward for the enthusiastic worker. In the CCCP (USSR) the only "enthusiastic" ones were the political leaders, who were able to get anything they wanted for themselves and their families. The average citizen could look forward to little but more work for no gain, while those who did no work still got fed, clothed and housed.

Since resources are getting sacred there is no better option than communism, which favors laziness instead of diligence (which is synonym of greed) and if you are greedy then you are forced to feed all lazy ones around.

So you're better off being lazy? You get fed, and you don't have to work! Sounds great to me.

This way resource consumption severely decreases.

Which means everyone but the guy with the resources starves. Sounds like the USSR, all right.

[Omega22]

"Enthusiasm" based systems don't work if there's no reward for the enthusiastic worker. In the CCCP (USSR) the only "enthusiastic" ones were the political leaders, who were able to get anything they wanted for themselves and their families. The average citizen could look forward to little but more work for no gain, while those who did no work still got fed, clothed and housed.

their leaders were mostly terminally ill old men who were incapable even to steal stuff anymore.
When we talk about rewards it should be something else than money. It can be satisfaction with your work and fame.

So you're better off being lazy? You get fed, and you don't have to work! Sounds great to me.

you still have to work something or you will be bored to death. it is just that if you want something more than basic living conditions you need to work and feed those who are satisfied by that.
in other words it is taxing of greed. better living standards you require more taxes you pay.
we don't need to promote consumption we need to force people to lower their living requirements. Don't buy all crap and there will be no need to make it. So you can be lazy if someone wants lots of crap like IPad or plasma TV or big new car then he can donate something for others.

Which means everyone but the guy with the resources starves. Sounds like the USSR, all right.

and what he is going to do with these raw resources? just dont let him to sell them and problem solved.
also resources should be taxed, so if you hog something you pay.

I am not suggesting to turn US into USSR
USSR had lots of problems but it also had lots of good stuff. unfortunately communism was too early at that time.
today efficiency is improved in may orders of magnitude and everything is different.
You have no choice. Capitalism is going to fail soon, or everything will turn into living hell.

[Thorne]

When we talk about rewards it should be something else than money. It can be satisfaction with your work and fame.

That will only take you so far. When you find yourself working long hours, sacrificing free time, and getting little more than the lazy neighbor next door, the satisfaction fades pretty quickly. And who needs fame?

you still have to work something or you will be bored to death. it is just that if you want something more than basic living conditions you need to work and feed those who are satisfied by that.

There are many ways to avoid boredom. And if you have to work to feed not only yourself but someone else boredom seems the lesser evil.

in other words it is taxing of greed. better living standards you require more taxes you pay.

And how do you pay those taxes without gaining any reward? I won't work to make just enough to survive, so that others can also survive. I don't mind paying my fair share, but not to waste it on derelicts and slackers.

we don't need to promote consumption we need to force people to lower their living requirements.

Why? So everyone can be miserable? The whole point of consumption is that it promotes better living conditions for all.

Don't buy all crap and there will be no need to make it.

Then there will be no jobs. More people sucking at the government teat.

So you can be lazy if someone wants lots of crap like IPad or plasma TV or big new car then he can donate something for others.

Forced taxation is far different than donations. Forced donations is simply taxation. Again, what's the benefit for the worker?

and what he is going to do with these raw resources? just dont let him to sell them and problem solved.

If he can't eat them, he'll trade them. With someone else who can't sell them. Don't tell me that there was no black market in the USSR.

also resources should be taxed, so if you hog something you pay.

Earning through your own labor is hardly hogging resources. One way or another you pay.

USSR had lots of problems but it also had lots of good stuff.

Like what?

today efficiency is improved in may orders of magnitude and everything is different.

Tell that to the people starving in North Korea. Tell that to the pre-capitalist Chinese. Any efficiency, whether in farming or manufacturing, has come from capitalist countries.

You have no choice. Capitalism is going to fail soon, or everything will turn into living hell.

Maybe so, but going back to an already failed system won't prevent that. The USSR was already a living hell before the collapse.

[Omega22]

That will only take you so far. When you find yourself working long hours, sacrificing free time, and getting little more than the lazy neighbor next door, the satisfaction fades pretty quickly. And who needs fame?

so dont work long hours, work only a little as much as you really need. All overworking is just waste of sacred resources.

There are many ways to avoid boredom. And if you have to work to feed not only yourself but someone else boredom seems the lesser evil.

any examples what are you doing to do? so you are living is some shitty house get shitty food and you just lay on the bed and watch TV all year.
I think no sane human will we able to be that lazy. But it is good, because if you don't move you conserve energy and you will be cheap to feed.

And how do you pay those taxes without gaining any reward? I won't work to make just enough to survive, so that others can also survive. I don't mind paying my fair share, but not to waste it on derelicts and slackers.

They get reward, and quite a big one. I don't say you must work for free you just pay about 90-95% of taxes. and you only get to keep 10%, but that 10 % is way more than you get doing nothing.

Why? So everyone can be miserable? The whole point of consumption is that it promotes better living conditions for all.

this is no longer the point, because we do not have enough resources to consume. It is dead end.
You simply cant continue that way of life anymore. you have either fight with all world to take their resources or reduce your consumption.

Then there will be no jobs. More people sucking at the government teat.

then maybe we should pay people for littering and then pay other people for cleaning?
making and buying crap is same as just burning stuff. it does not make your life better.
to make it better you need correct jobs like improving infrastructure and inventing new better tools not just produce useless ipads that go to trash can next year.

Forced taxation is far different than donations. Forced donations is simply taxation. Again, what's the benefit for the worker?

he gets benefit to live in better conditions than everyone else.

If he can't eat them, he'll trade them. With someone else who can't sell them. Don't tell me that there was no black market in the USSR.

there was no point in black market, because resources were dirt cheap. Only problem was getting consumable goods.

Earning through your own labor is hardly hogging resources. One way or another you pay.

If you buy land then you take it away from public use thats hogging of resources. and you must pay big taxes fro owning that land.
if you by car you also hog some amount of metal and plastic which is not available for public use anymore.

Like what?

life USSR was really calm without any competition and stress, you had all your basic needs fulfilled. there was no need to fight for your place when you finish high school government gives you some job and place to live. then you work something and live easy boring life. However, if you need something above basic living it gets really hard to obtain.

Tell that to the people starving in North Korea. Tell that to the pre-capitalist Chinese. Any efficiency, whether in farming or manufacturing, has come from capitalist countries.

their only problem is lack of modern tools dont forget that these people do not feed on gasoline like US
they use their muscle power instead of machines. give modern farm equipment to Koreans and they will feed themselves with no problems.
Us is not in better situation, because these nations at least produce everything they need, unlike US who produces only half of what it consumes and rest goes in debt.
Isn't it funny that USSR is lending money to US?

Maybe so, but going back to an already failed system won't prevent that. The USSR was already a living hell before the collapse.

It was not hell at all only problem there was that life was quite boring. system failed because it went ahead of time. it is like capitalism in stone age.
However you still have no choice if you don't limit consumption you will by limited by law of conservation of mass and energy.
You cant indefinitely increase consumption of limited resources.
in the end it will result war between these who hogged all resources and these who are starving because they cant get anything.

[Thorne]

I don't say you must work for free you just pay about 90-95% of taxes.

And what does that work gain me? I get the same thing as the lazy bum next door. If I want anything else I buy it with my 10%. Except, there isn't anything to buy, because nobody is making anything!

Only problem was getting consumable goods.

Exactly! Because no one was working to make consumable goods. So what good is your 10%?

If you buy land then you take it away from public use thats hogging of resources. and you must pay big taxes fro owning that land.
if you by car you also hog some amount of metal and plastic which is not available for public use anymore.

This makes no sense. What is the public going to do with the land, or the plastic? They have no money to do anything with it!

when you finish high school government gives you some job and place to live. then you work something and live easy boring life. However, if you need something above basic living it gets really hard to obtain.

Sounds idyllic. Not.

their only problem is lack of modern tools dont forget that these people do not feed on gasoline like US
they use their muscle power instead of machines. give modern farm equipment to Koreans and they will feed themselves with no problems.

Ahh, so we should stop using resources and just give them to Koreans, so they can use them instead of us. Again, why?

Isn't it funny that USSR is lending money to US?

There IS no USSR. Russia MAY be lending us money, I don't know. But that's beside the point. Where are the Russians getting the money in the first place? By manufacturing products and selling them! Using resources. And getting wealthier. Basically, becoming capitalists.