the story of Our Lady "the Virgin Mary" in the muslims holly book (quran)

[denuseri]

I dont believe that the topic of the thread is about weather or not any given religion or belief system is better than another Thorne so much as domaster is trying to point out that muslims and christians have some common ground that is shared between them, even though I know that you so desperatly wish to deride all faiths and beliefs that are not your own, a point you have made abundantly clear.

Such hypocrisy used to astound me when coming from you too once upon a time...the man in the video is doing the very thing you yourself recomend all people to do, he has went out and studied things and decided for himself which path "he" wishes to follow to God if any.

Just as the vast majority of us who are at liberty too ourselves, even in the areas of the world in which you claim we cant, my own faith arose quite letterally from such a place.

Instead of deriding him maby you would be better served by praising him.

But keep your blindfold on, keep twisting what anyone else says to feed the fire of your bully pulpit and insulting others. It must be how you wish aethism to be portrayed I guess.



There was a point in time when not all Christans believed that Jesus was divine in and of his own right eaither btw.


Addittonally, all of the faiths mentioned (other than aethism apparently) seem to in fact to preach tolerance of others.


Love thy nieghbor as thyself is a very common theme in all the majior religious ethos.


That doesnt mean kill your nieghbor if he disagrees with you.


Nor does it mean insult him if his beliefs differ from your own.


It means seek a peacful means to come to an understanding.


Fundamentalism and secularism are not part of Allah's will and they are derisive and repugnant in His eyes.


Such things derive from the evil in mens hearts that lead to misinterpetation of what other good men have written about God and His wishes where as we His creation are conserned.

[Thorne]

Such hypocrisy astounds me from you Thorne...the man in the video is doing the very thing you yourself recomend all people to do, he has went out and studied things and decided for himself which path "he" wishes to follow to God.

True, but he's basing his search on the premise that there IS a god. Without evidence. But that's beside the point, it's still a belief in something unprovable.

There was a point in time when not all Christans believed that Jesus was divine in and of his own right eaither btw.

Yes, I'm aware of that. Which only lends weight to my arguments that religions adapt to suit the people who need them, not the other way around. Which is even more evidence that these holy books are NOT the inerrant word of god.

Addittonally, all of the faiths mentioned (other than aethism) seem to in fact to preach tolerance of others.

You might want to check into the Blood Libel to see just how "tolerant" of Jews Christians have been. And look up the punishment for apostasy in Islam. Not quite so tolerant as you presume.

Love thy nieghbor as thyself is a very common theme in all the majior religious ethos.

As long as that neighbor believes as you do. It's not so clear cut otherwise.

That doesnt mean kill your nieghbor if he disagrees with you.

Again, look into the Muslim hatred of Jews, or Christian hatred of Jews. Hell, just look at some of the Christian hatred towards Muslims! And vice versa.

Nor does it mean insult him if his beliefs differ from your own.

How about when those beliefs defy logic?

It means seek a peacful means to come to an understanding.

Yes, just look how peacefully the Sunni's and Sufi's are resolving their differences.

Fundamentalism and secularism are not part of Allah's will and they are derisive and repugnant in His eyes.

Doesn't sound too tolerant to me. Don't fundamentalists count towards loving thy neighbor?

Such things derive from the evil in mens hearts and misinterpetation of what men have written about God.

Perhaps the basic problem is that there has been so much contradictory testimony written about gods.

As I have said many times, I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to believe. But if they want to post those beliefs in an open forum like this I have no problem in telling them what I think. As abrasive and annoying as you believe my posts are, I find such proselytizing to be equally abrasive and annoying.

Few people would be upset if I were to ridicule someone who posted a screed about alien bases on the far side of the moon, or unicorns raining from clear skies, or any of dozens of equally inane ideas. Why must I keep quiet about religious ideas, which I find to be just as inane as any of those others?

[Incidentally, some of the comments I've quoted above don't appear in your post, but showed up when I clicked the "Reply With Quote" button. I assume you intended to delete them, and I'm not sure why they showed up, but I decided to respond to them anyway. Perhaps a moderator could look into this issue? It can create some confusion, I'm sure.]

[leo9]

[QUOTE=denuseri;922381]Addittonally, all of the faiths mentioned (other than aethism apparently) seem to in fact to preach tolerance of others.

I can't believe you are serious. As for Xianity, if you think that has always been tolerant of other religions you slept through History 101. As for Islam, the Hadith says "He that changes his religion, he must be slain," and that is still the law in many Middle Eastern states. In India the Hindus are persecuting Muslims as enthusiastically as the other way around. They used to say Buddhists were always tolerant, until the Sri Lankan Buddhists started slaughtering their Hindu neighbours.

With the arguable exception of Stalinist Russia, I can't think of an example of atheist persecutions.

[Thorne]

With the arguable exception of Stalinist Russia, I can't think of an example of atheist persecutions.

And even there, you cannot say those persecutions were in the cause of atheism. They were performed to satisfy the cause of Communism. And a flawed communism at that.

[thir]

With the arguable exception of Stalinist Russia, I can't think of an example of atheist persecutions.

China? South Africa? Slavery? Racism?

[Thorne]

China? South Africa? Slavery? Racism?

Were any of these done to promote the cause of atheism?

Yes, bad things can be done by anyone, atheists included. But I don't know of any atrocities which were committed in the name of atheism. History is littered with examples of atrocities committed in the name of religions, on the other hand. And many of those atrocities were condoned, if not instigated, by the leaders of those religions.

[denuseri]

Were any of these done to promote the cause of atheism?

Yes, bad things can be done by anyone, atheists included. But I don't know of any atrocities which were committed in the name of atheism. History is littered with examples of atrocities committed in the name of religions, on the other hand. And many of those atrocities were condoned, if not instigated, by the leaders of those religions.

Here we go again huh?

Read up on the Communists and get back to us on that one, it was their idea to have state funded, state promoted, religious persecution. Which all the more just proves my point made way back before, about how its not the religions doing the bad stuff...its bad people doing bad stuff and misussing the "ideas" presented in any given philosophy, religion, creedo, etc.

<< goes to check the thread's topic, comes back, rme.

So whats all that got to do with Islam and Chiristianity having a chance to get along?

Or are you back to your same ole agenda of creating division so common ground cant be talked about between "theists".

[denuseri]

Inquiry: I understand that Christianity and Islam can never co-exist in peace with each other because of their extreme dogmas.

Is this true?

Response: From the perspective of both Islam and Christianity, this statement is not true.

In fact, from the very beginning Christianity has co-existed peacefully with other religions, including religions that opposed it.

For example, the leaders of the Jewish religion considered the truth claims of Christianity blasphemous; and, as a result, the leaders attempted to kill those who followed it whenever they could. Saul of Tarsus (see Acts 9) persecuted Christians. But the Christians did not therefore view it as their duty to revenge their persecutors. Rather, Christians are instructed by Holy Scripture to "live at peace with all men" (Romans 12:18, see also Hebrews 12:14), including those with whom we disagree.

Its part of that whole "tiruning the other cheek" thing.

Attempts to execute wrath upon others are totally contrary to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

(Sadly, it must be acknowledged that not all Christians have truly followed the teachings of the Bible in this respect.)

And when they do commit acts of agression and violence against one another, they are in fact breaking the tennents of their respected faiths.

Technically that makes them automatically excomunicated from said religion by defualt in the eyes of some.


According to Dr. James. A McBean D.Th., MCC :

"Men lacking the will to understand other men, in time will became like the beasts, and the beasts ways of life, will be ours. When we consider how religion comes about, it is rather stupid, for people to hate each other over religious dogmas. Especially over something that base on other people dreams. The founder of our leading religions, said that they got a vision of God. Some said they had a vision or a dream of an angel giving them the revelation for the book that they have written. Moses said an angel has spoken to him. Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" said it was the angel name.Moronic Spoken to him. Mary said: it was an angel name. Gabriel spoken to her. Joseph the husband of Mary said: it was an angel told him in a dream about Jesus. Mohammed the founder of Islam said it was an angel name. Gabriel gives him the revelation to wrote the Koran. ...

All the foundation religions are base on a vision of an angels or a dream. It is up to each man to believe it or reject it.

If it makes you feel good to believe it, then go ahead and believe it. If it makes you feel better not to believe it, by all means go ahead and do not believe it."

Ok who is right?

Does it really matter? No. It only matters to each and every individual.

No one has the right to say their way is best any more than anyone else (yes that includes you agnostics and aethists out there too).

Science hasnt proven anything one way or the other. It may never be able to do so for all we know in the forceable future.

So why make such a fuss.

All these base faiths say basically the same message. :live in peace with one another, love thy nieghbor as yourself, and it harm not others do as thou wilt, etc etc

Why not let every one Tend to their own garden as Voltaire suggests in Candide?

All each and everyone of us that wishes to abide by what appears to be our collective idealized vision of God's message (or personalized philosophy of "reason"...no matter what our chosen path, would need to do is let go of all that angst and hate we hold inside ourselves for the other guy.

Just say, ok thats fine, you can believe or not in what you wish to, no skin off my nose, lets still be good brothers and sisters to each other and press on with life and leave the bad parts of ourselves behind.

How about it?

Anyone here want to give that a try?

I'm certiantly game.