Did the gods (god) create us?

[leo9]

No surprises here...the idea of being punnished in the afterlife for miss-deeds done today or the use of negative reinforcment as a means of political control over a populace is nothing new and was preveleant in allmost every corner of the globe long before monotheism and christianity rose to the stage, predating even agriculture.

Do you have any evidence for this remarkable assertion?

It is well established that almost all known human cultures, back to the dawn of the species, have shown evidence of a belief in some kind of survival after death, as evidenced, in pre-literate times, by ritualistic funerary practices. But there is a world of difference between believing in the survival of the soul, and believing in judgement and damnation.

To take just a quick survey of those religions of which I have some knowledge, the Chinese, the Indians, the Native Americans, the Australians, all the native African cultures I have heard of, and the European Celts, did not believe that the souls of evil-doers went to punishment in the next world.

Some of those believed in reincarnation, and some of those (by no means all) believed that this was affected by one's deeds in previous lives, but that is another breed of cat again. Again, some believed in a special reward in the next world for special heroes, but the rest, good or bad, were all believed to end up in the same place sharing the same existence. This probably includes the Germanic and Scandinavian peoples: there is some evidence that their mythology included punishment of sinners, but it is questionable, as it dates from the period after the coming of Christianity and was recorded by Christian monks.

The Egyptians believed that only the good were admitted to the afterlife, but those who didn't qualify didn't go to Hell: they just stayed dead. Jehovah's Witnesses believe this is what Jesus taught, and they may have a point.

I think most historians of religion trace the idea of punishment in the afterlife to Zoroaster's Persia. From there it spread over the Middle East, and was taken up by the Hebrews. Jesus's recorded statements about the afterlife mostly concern the saved, so people went back to the Old Testament for something about the others, and the rest is history.

[denuseri]

Do you have any evidence for this remarkable assertion?

"It is well established that almost all known human cultures, back to the dawn of the species, have shown evidence of a belief in some kind of survival after death, as evidenced, in pre-literate times, by ritualistic funerary practices. But there is a world of difference between believing in the survival of the soul, and believing in judgement and damnation.

To take just a quick survey of those religions of which I have some knowledge, the Chinese, the Indians, the Native Americans, the Australians, all the native African cultures I have heard of, and the European Celts, did not believe that the souls of evil-doers went to punishment in the next world.

Some of those believed in reincarnation, and some of those (by no means all) believed that this was affected by one's deeds in previous lives, but that is another breed of cat again. Again, some believed in a special reward in the next world for special heroes, but the rest, good or bad, were all believed to end up in the same place sharing the same existence. This probably includes the Germanic and Scandinavian peoples: there is some evidence that their mythology included punishment of sinners, but it is questionable, as it dates from the period after the coming of Christianity and was recorded by Christian monks.

The Egyptians believed that only the good were admitted to the afterlife, but those who didn't qualify didn't go to Hell: they just stayed dead. Jehovah's Witnesses believe this is what Jesus taught, and they may have a point.

I think most historians of religion trace the idea of punishment in the afterlife to Zoroaster's Persia. From there it spread over the Middle East, and was taken up by the Hebrews. Jesus's recorded statements about the afterlife mostly concern the saved, so people went back to the Old Testament for something about the others, and the rest is history.

Just those things written by others throughout history about the subject good Sir. Smiles.

Here is something from one of them:

"Although the word hell comes from Hel, the Norse* goddess of death, hells appear in the beliefs and mythologies of many cultures. Common features of hells include burning heat or freezing cold, darkness (symbolizing the soul's separation from light, goodness, and truth), physical agony that represents spiritual suffering, and devils or demons who torment the damned.

Hinduism is based on the belief that each soul lives many, many lives. A soul may spend time in any of 21 hells to pay for wrong actions during a lifetime, but eventually that soul will be reborn in the world.

In the Jain religion, which is related to Hinduism, sinners go to a hell called bhumis, where demons torment them until they have paid for whatever evil they committed in life.

In many myths, hell appears as a place of punishment and suffering after death.

There are numerous versions of Buddhism with various ideas of hell. Some Buddhists still follow the traditional belief of up to 136 hells. The hell to which a dead soul goes for punishment depends on the person's actions in the most recent life. Some Buddhist doctrines speak of the karmavacara, the realm of physical and sensory perceptions, as a series of hells. The Chinese belief that souls are punished after death to pay for sins or errors committed during life combines some Buddhist ideas with elements of traditional Taoist Chinese mythology.

Before Christianity gave its own meanings to the concepts of heaven and hell, the pagan peoples of Europe imagined the dark side of the afterlife. The Norse pictured Hel, the corpselike goddess of death, as queen of a grim underground realm populated by those who had died of sickness and old age. This view of hell involves a dread of death and a horror of the cold, dark, decaying grave, but it does not suggest a place of punishment. (though it still sounds like a not so fun place to go)

The Greek underworld was divided into three regions: Hades, Tartarus, and Elysium. Most of the dead went to the kingdom of the god Hades. In the deepest part of the underworld, a terrible dark place known as Tartarus, the very wicked suffered eternal punishment at the hands of the Furies. The third region, Elysium or the Elysian Fields, was where exceptionally good and righteous people went after death.

The image of hell as a place of torment for sinners emerged fully in the Persian mythology based on the faith founded in the 500s B . C . by Zoroaster. According to Zoroastrian belief, souls are judged after death at a bridge where their lives are weighed. If the outcome is good, the bridge widens and carries them to heaven. If they are judged to have been evil, the bridge narrows and pitches them down into a dreadful hell. Those whose lives were an equal mix of good and evil go to a realm called hamestagan, in which they experience both heat and cold.

The early Hebrews called their afterworld Sheol and pictured it as a quiet, sad place where all the dead went. By around 200 B . C ., under the influence of Zoroastrianism and other belief systems, the Jews had adopted the idea of judgment for the dead. The afterworld became a heaven for the good and a hell for the wicked.

Images of hell in Chinese myth are a blend of Buddhist scriptures and Taoist beliefs. Such images enlivened books about fictional journeys to hell, such as Travels in the West , which gave readers an unsettling glimpse of possible future torments. Sinners descend to the base of the sacred mountain, Meru, to undergo a set period of punishment in one hell or in a series of hells. When they have paid for their sins and are ready for rebirth, they drink a brew that makes them forget their past lives. In some accounts, a wheel of rebirth lifts them to their next life, while in others they are thrown from a bridge of pain into a river that carries them onward.

According to the Maya, the souls of most of the dead went to an underworld known as Xibalba. Only individuals who died in violent circumstances went directly to one of the heavens. In the Mayan legend of the Hero Twins, told in the Popol Vuh, Xibalba is divided into houses filled with terrifying objects such as knives, jaguars, and bats. The twins undergo a series of trials in these houses and eventually defeat the lords of Xibalba. The Aztecs believed that the souls of ordinary people went to an underworld called Mictlan. Each soul wandered through the layers of Mictlan until it reached the deepest level."

[Thorne]

So basically what we're saying here is that, after at least 10,000 years of "revelation" from the gods, people still have no idea what the afterlife is supposed to be like, or even if there actually is one?

Hmph! And those same people will scoff at science because we can't prove or disprove the existence of extra-terrestrial life, and we've only been looking for less than 50 years. Without benefit of divine revelation.

Hardly seems fair, does it?

[leo9]

Just those things written by others throughout history about the subject good Sir. Smiles.

Here is something from one of them:

"
Hinduism is based on the belief that each soul lives many, many lives. A soul may spend time in any of 21 hells to pay for wrong actions during a lifetime, but eventually that soul will be reborn in the world.

In the Jain religion, which is related to Hinduism, sinners go to a hell called bhumis, where demons torment them until they have paid for whatever evil they committed in life.

In many myths, hell appears as a place of punishment and suffering after death.

There are numerous versions of Buddhism with various ideas of hell. Some Buddhists still follow the traditional belief of up to 136 hells. The hell to which a dead soul goes for punishment depends on the person's actions in the most recent life. Some Buddhist doctrines speak of the karmavacara, the realm of physical and sensory perceptions, as a series of hells. The Chinese belief that souls are punished after death to pay for sins or errors committed during life combines some Buddhist ideas with elements of traditional Taoist Chinese mythology.

I stand corrected, I wasn't aware that either of those religions had that element as well as rebirth.

Before Christianity gave its own meanings to the concepts of heaven and hell, the pagan peoples of Europe imagined the dark side of the afterlife. The Norse pictured Hel, the corpselike goddess of death, as queen of a grim underground realm populated by those who had died of sickness and old age. This view of hell involves a dread of death and a horror of the cold, dark, decaying grave, but it does not suggest a place of punishment.

Because, as I said, it wasn't a place of punishment: whether you went there wasn't about virtue but heroism. (It's been said that the main reason Christianity caught on in Northern Europe was that it offered everyone a shot at heaven, not just the heroes.)

The Greek underworld was divided into three regions: Hades, Tartarus, and Elysium. Most of the dead went to the kingdom of the god Hades. In the deepest part of the underworld, a terrible dark place known as Tartarus, the very wicked suffered eternal punishment at the hands of the Furies. The third region, Elysium or the Elysian Fields, was where exceptionally good and righteous people went after death.

I'm familiar with this, which is why I didn't instance the Classical civilisations.

The image of hell as a place of torment for sinners emerged fully in the Persian mythology based on the faith founded in the 500s B . C . by Zoroaster. According to Zoroastrian belief, souls are judged after death at a bridge where their lives are weighed. If the outcome is good, the bridge widens and carries them to heaven. If they are judged to have been evil, the bridge narrows and pitches them down into a dreadful hell. Those whose lives were an equal mix of good and evil go to a realm called hamestagan, in which they experience both heat and cold.

The early Hebrews called their afterworld Sheol and pictured it as a quiet, sad place where all the dead went. By around 200 B . C ., under the influence of Zoroastrianism and other belief systems, the Jews had adopted the idea of judgment for the dead. The afterworld became a heaven for the good and a hell for the wicked.

Which is, in more detail, what I said.

According to the Maya, the souls of most of the dead went to an underworld known as Xibalba. Only individuals who died in violent circumstances went directly to one of the heavens. In the Mayan legend of the Hero Twins, told in the Popol Vuh, Xibalba is divided into houses filled with terrifying objects such as knives, jaguars, and bats. The twins undergo a series of trials in these houses and eventually defeat the lords of Xibalba. The Aztecs believed that the souls of ordinary people went to an underworld called Mictlan. Each soul wandered through the layers of Mictlan until it reached the deepest level."

As I said, not an afterlife of judgement and punishment.

So, I accept I was mistaken about India and China. That still leaves a lot of "corners of the globe" that didn't believe in punishment for sins after death, and still doesn't offer any evidence for your assertion that this belief was so universal that it predates agriculture. As I said, the fact that Stone Age cultures apparently believed in life after death in some form doesn't tell us what form they imagined, and certainly doesn't give us any reason to believe they had already evolved the beliefs that your quoted authority dates to the late Iron Age.