Wired in reverse?

[Jennifer Williams]

I've been thinking about this for awhile and I was wondering what other people's perspective was; particularly dommes and male subs.

Though most of the time it doesn't bother me (self-confidence is not an issue that is usually on my plate), now and then I get to feeling that my brain is wired backwards. People just so naturally assume that a male is dominant (even in basically vanilla situations), that sometimes it winds up slamming me in the face.

For example, when little one and I tell people that our dream is one day for me to have such a good job that he won't have to work, and he can stay home and take care of the house and raise the kids. We both love this idea. I can't begin to tell you the flack we get, from nearly every one, for wanting that.

Or when he sits in my lap, or when I order his meals for him, or when I push him behind me to protect him if I think someone might hurt him; even just when people see him cook dinner for me and then clean the table. The comments are endless. He gets called gay all the time (not that there is anything wrong with being gay; it's just that people are judging him based on stereotypes).

This is bothering me today because recently the fuse blew in the power steering on my car and I had the hood up while I was replacing it, and a "kind bystander" walked by and asked if I needed help, which in of itself I suppose was fine, until he saw my little one sitting in the passenger seat and said "What, he can't even get out and help you?" to which I snapped, "No, I can push this little square thingy in this little hole all by my little self, don't worry about it." And then thankfully he went away.

Sometimes my temper gets the best of me... <: (


Does anyone else out there experience these things? How do you deal with them? Do you bother to try to explain, or do you just roll your eyes and move on? I thought this was the twenty-first century and gender stereotypes were old hat, but apparently that isn't so.

[denuseri]

Well I can tell you this much...when people sence that I defer in a submissive manner to my Owner we two get a similar kind of flack believe it or not becuase I am not being treated as an "equal" or being personally assertive enough for whoever or he is being a mysoginist in some peoples eyes or not treating me in the current politically correct pro feminism manner polite society now assumes to be the norm.

So its not just the F/m D/s or M/s relationship that gets descriminated against.

[Jennifer Williams]

True, I suppose being anything that isn't the "social norm" will cause, uh...discomfort, I guess.

Just sometimes I get tired of hearing other people's comments on our life. Then I'm stuck with this dilemma: let degrading comments slide, or try to make an argument to defend us? Both options seem so miserable sometimes.

[13'sbadkitty]

Well I can tell you this much...when people sence that I defer in a submissive manner to my Owner we two get a similar kind of flack believe it or not becuase I am not being treated as an "equal" or being personally assertive enough for whoever or he is being a mysoginist in some peoples eyes or not treating me in the current politically correct pro feminism manner polite society now assumes to be the norm.

So its not just the F/m D/s or M/s relationship that gets descriminated against.

i would have to agree with denu, i defer to Him and get the why do you let Him do that crap all the time. i wear a slave anklet that rings everywhere i walk. so many people tell me the would tell Him go fuck Himself if they were given it. i just reply i wear it because He gave it to me so i love it. i would never tell them i don't have permission to remove it. He gets called gay all the time and He presents as very masculine and big just because He gardens. He gets alot of crap because He looks at me so lovingly. i got crap for sitting on the floor next to Him at a party while He was on the couch. (there wasn't even room on the couch btw) people are just judgemental over what is different from THEM and not even social norms as my experience goes.

[denuseri]

We ussually dont really conduct ourselves in any kind of overt way in public that would let anyone in as to our kink; save in those venues where such behaviors will be acceptable (the whole when in rome principle).

In other words we dont do certian things that are totally socially inapropriate and adjust our behavior accordingly to the situation depending upon the circumstances.

Like I don't call my Owner "Master" when around the uninitiated and such, or stay off the furniture, or a number of other things that would quite naturally shock people, like kneeling etc.

It sounds that for the most part this is what most of us are doing as well (not being full on in anyones face about our kink). Something which I think we all wish we didnt have to do, but for the most part do anyways.

Yet we all probabely still manage to precive ourselves as having taken flack from the "nillas" lol.

Some gender roles are still heavely ingrained in the human phyche despite the artificial efforts of modern feminism or other social movments to expunge it. (Lesson: IE some things are for the most part hardwired and not capable of being so readily changed...things like sexual orientation for instance).

We may all feel the need as modern bdsm practicioners to seek social acceptance for being against the grain in some areas, to enhance the boundaries of what is and is not normal etc. But we should allways keep in mind that there will be those who don't understand us or who may react negatively to us at first until they get to know us.

It helps to keep in mind that social stereotypes are the way they are becuase they are in fact actually "ussually" applicable or so near universally applicable that they become so to the preception of a general public's prespective and wont change easily or at all in some cases, especially without proper education.

For instance...I am all sorts of bdsmy...yet if I saw a full grown male sitting on a womans lap in public in some circumstances or as with the car situation in the back seat as opposed to helping, or like at the party where one was kneeling on the floor while the other sat, I too may be perplexed to see such at first despite my being well informed of bdsmy things, simpley becuase it does break those ingrained preceptions.

This doesnt make such perceptions right or wrong or anything in all cases, but it is not anything new and part of the human proccess.

I used to get all sorts of crazy reactions when I was all gothed up in certian venues when I was younger. My Owner even more so (he is ten years my senior) when he was all "punked" out with a mohawk and such back in the day. Though now days..if I am conservative in my gothiness...I find people barely look twice in any kind of wtf manner and even if I am not conservative about it they for the most part shrug and go "oh she is a punk" or somthing to that effect, but I still wouldnt expect them to be so understanding if I was going in for a job interview.

They say "Familuraity breeds contempt" yet I think it also breeds among other things, an acceptance by proxy in its own way.

Hopefully some day the general public will become just as accepting of bdsm, and reversals of gender roles and any other safe sane and consensually based kinkology.

I am sure: everyone I would think, would hate to have to go back to the days of litterally hiding behind closed doors, that Ive heard so much about from my elders in the art.

Until that day, I hope and pray we all have the presence of mind to find the wisdom and serenity to conduct ourselves in a calm manner when dealing with preceptions of discrimination so as to not further alienate the general public anymore than is nessesary but to educate them as to give us equatible social acceptance in the eyes of society, which I believe we are well on the way to doing thanks to the dedicated efforts of many in the community.

[13'sbadkitty]

honestly, if anything at all i am not bdsmy in public unless its a tasking day. like sitting on the floor was a no room on the couch thing and i still got a strong reaction. while i agree that a grown man sitting on a woman's lap would get my attention as well, there is so much prejudiced in the world of so much its sometimes hard for me.

when i was a stay at home mom, all the working women looked down on me openly.
when i breastfed my kids, all the bottle feeding moms and society as a whole reacted quite strongly even though i was always discreet though i refused to be relegated to the bathroom.
when i was a single mom, people looked down on me and treated me as a liability on the planet (couldn't get an apartment without borrowing a guy to pose as my husband)
my Master has asthma and serious allergies and when i mow O/our lawn there are so many sideways looks i can't tell you.
i think on the whole its just the way people are and while i don't go all outing myself and fly my freak flag high, i don't normalize myself either. i will at 44 years old dye my hair all sorts of colors, sit on His bike in leather all proud and still my kids eat veggies at dinner and do homework everyday.
my point is that i have found a way to be myself in ways that i am comfortable with the flack i get. tattoos, piercings, motorcycles and purplehair, job, pta, advocate and grocery shopper (lol) i am just tired of trying to fit my way of life into others perception of what it should be, while i do realize this is the world i have to live work and function in. rant of the day

[Jennifer Williams]

i think on the whole its just the way people are and while i don't go all outing myself and fly my freak flag high, i don't normalize myself either.

That is basically where I stand, too. I wouldn't go around announcing to the world in a loud voice "We're different!", but sometimes you can't help doing the little things that you're so used to you don't realize you do them. And I don't want to live my life in fear worrying about "hiding" what we are, either. Yes, during swimsuit season I take care not to mark him, but I'm not going to tell him "If we get ice cream at the beach you have to choose what you want for yourself." I think he'd cry.

I am grateful that we do live in an area where weird looks and snide comments are all we get. My sister (who is a lesbian but not bdsmy) lives in a more intolerant area, and she does have to take care not to hold her sweetheart's hand in public or call her "honey" or put her arm around her or any such thing, because they fear being physically hurt or fired from their jobs or some other kind of crazy reaction.

So maybe I will just have to learn better to let it roll off my shoulders; though really I don't care what they say about me; it's when they insult the one I love that makes it harder.

Btw, I think "bdsmy" is now my new favorite word.

[skittish doe]

... but I'm not going to tell him "If we get ice cream at the beach you have to choose what you want for yourself." I think he'd cry.

Something in me just adored that, thank you for sharing.

[Ozme52]

I can't comment per se, I'm not in your boat, I don't have that type of reaction to my actions in the vanilla world... but I would hope I just wouldn't let it bother me.

I would try to not let it make me question myself or the roles within my relationships. I get the feeling you just wanted to verbalize your irritation and get some feedback and that you are indeed both confident enough and happy in your relationship.

Sometimes you just have to take the high road.

And as far as "being wired in reverse" is concerned... no, not at all. You just chose to ignore the socialization that parents and peers tried to impose on you. There's a lot of evidence (in my opinion) that previous ancient civs were matriarchies... or at least inheritance passed from mother to son and not father to son. And though today we see the hunter role as the primary "lead role" for all we really know, the gatherer role was. It took more time to learn, to master, and to teach and pass on.

You, having adapted yourself to be primary in the industrial age's perspective of the household leader bodes well. And why not. We're lucky that we have the intellectual ability to chose.

[tina2008]

I feel it's the role reversal. People are accustomed to male led relationships. Anything other than that is odd or out of the norm, simply because they can't or won't comprehend. It's much easier to follow societal norms.

Try to ignore and not allow other people's reaction to your relationship irritate you (easier said than done). Eventually, the people you're around often will become accustomed to it or at least keep their comments to themselves.

Female submissives catch a bit of flack too. My friends and some of my siblings initially thought I was joking when they found out that Sir dictated what and when I'd do something (though we're very low protocol). Their disbelief came as I'm fairly dominant at work and in other areas of my life; that I would defer to someone else, especially a man was unthinkable.

[Jennifer Williams]

Eventually, the people you're around often will become accustomed to it or at least keep their comments to themselves.

Yes, this is true. Oddly enough, we don't have any problems with his family, I suppose because he's been submissive his whole life so they're just used to him (and his mother is DOMINANT; she runs the family and nobody questions her, nobody would dare).

My family's beginning to get used to him; they've figured out that if they want to ask a question to him specifically (and not to us), that if they say his name first I'll be quiet and he will answer. That's not something we planned, it just comes out like that.

I was, as Oz said, venting about my frustration with the general public. I appreciate everyone sharing their experiences as well; sometimes it's comforting to know you're not the only one who has to face things.

[nawteeone]

It's funny, because I find myself on both sides. IRL, I am the breadwinner, I make all the financial decisions, and pretty much every other decision. I never used to be like that, and I suppose some people think I might be controlling, but honestly, I've HAD to step up, because I am married to a complete beta male. He's a 6 foot, 4 inch 230 lb guy who can't do most traditionally "male" things. He's an artist (I say that rolling my eyes....he is quite good, but I was an artist too-in a past life, until I realized that Starving Artist isn't exactly a great way to make a living, never mind having 2 under the same roof).

Anywho, on one hand, I'm all "I'm WOMAN, hear me ROAR" like when I put in our new garbage disposal. He does get flack for not having a job that provides for his family.....sometimes from me as well, but to be honest, I've been really glad that our kids have not had to be in daycare at all. On the other hand, I sometimes just wish the roles were changed. I wish I had someone who could take care of me, physically, mentally, and sometimes financially.

I think in society the roles for both men and women have really changed. My personal opinion is that it's harder for women, because many of us DO need to work outside of the home, but still find ourselves doing a majority of the "household duties." And men have found themselves being the caregiver of the kids much more than any generation in the past.

*sigh* I'm for women's lib & all that, and the minute you take away my freedom I'm liable to rebel, but sometimes I feel it would be nice to go back to the good old days.

Not that any of my rambling here helped you out at all, but my point is, things are so blurred anymore, yet the old ideals are still alive & kicking that I think MOST couples, regardless of their situation, probably don't fit into society's idea of "normal."

In a nutshell, if you're both happy, piss on everyone else!

[Jennifer Williams]

In a nutshell, if you're both happy, piss on everyone else!

Yes, and that is what I tell my little one all the time- that I love him for who he is, he's perfect for me and I don't want him to be anyone else but himself.

Now all I have to do is take my own advice, and I'm set!

[fetishdj]

I think one thing that no one seems to understand is that freedom is freedom. It includes the freedom to behave how you like, within reason. So women have the right to be strong willed and assertive but they also have the right, should they choose, to revert to what many consider to be an old fashioned stereotype. Men too can still be allowed to be aggressive and dominant, assuming thier partner is happy with that, but can also be submissive. The real morons are the ones who try to impose their version of reality on others - those who give you flak for doing things against thier 'ideal'.

My marriage is by no means a BDSM one. We play a little in the bedroom, but nothing serious. She certainly does not identify herself as my Mistress. However, she works full time and earns the main wages for the household. I work when and where I can but usually stay at home and look after the house. She has decided that we are not going to have children and I am perfectly happy with that decision of hers. People we know personally don't mind either of these things, some even support it. However, she has had flak from people we don't know online, mainly because of her desire not to have children. She especially hates the ones who say 'you'll change your mind when you get older' because she *has* got older and still does not have any desires to have one.

I think the problem is that we (the western world) has come out of a time of strict manners and decorum (the 1950s) where women were oppressed and men had to be strong into a time of more fluid sexual politics. The scars of women's lib and feminism are still raw for some, though this generation of women are at least comfortable with thier femininity as well as their freedom (unlike some of the previous generations who thought you had to become a man to be free) there are still those who see any deference as a betrayal of the sisterhood. As the generation of our grandparents (who lived through the 50's) die out and the generation of our parents (who lived through the sexual revolutions of the 60s and 70s) also start to lose control over the reins of society, these attitudes will start to go to be replaced by the more comfortable ideals of the 80s and 90s.

[Jennifer Williams]

Ah, so you're saying all I have to do is be patient and the world will change to accept me. I like it.

Well, freedom does mean that we can act as we choose (so long as it's within the law), but it does also mean that people have the right to express their opinions to my face, I guess. Well, when that happens I usually try to tell myself that they're just jealous because I'm happy and they're clearly not. That works on most days, anyway.

[fetishdj]

Unfortunately, by the time it changes that much you'll probably be too old to appreciate it and more than likely complaining that 'the good old days' were better and young people today don't know their born...

[Jennifer Williams]

No, I was planning on living forever and never getting old. Ha, got you there.

[chuck]

No, I was planning on living forever and never getting old...

So far, so good

[leo9]

Ah, so you're saying all I have to do is be patient and the world will change to accept me. I like it.

It's called "be the change you want to see". I always said it was the only kind of activism I could do. Then I discovered it could be as dangerous as standing up to police lines or getting in the way of whalers... but I'm not sorry.

My late wife and I had the same kind of reactions as yours to her working and me staying home and looking after the house and baby... and the joke was, she was my slave. But those of our friends who knew, in general terms, that we had a BDSM relationship, automatically assumed she dominated me.

[Jennifer Williams]

It's called "be the change you want to see". I always said it was the only kind of activism I could do. Then I discovered it could be as dangerous as standing up to police lines or getting in the way of whalers... but I'm not sorry.

My late wife and I had the same kind of reactions as yours to her working and me staying home and looking after the house and baby... and the joke was, she was my slave. But those of our friends who knew, in general terms, that we had a BDSM relationship, automatically assumed she dominated me.

I'm so sorry to hear about your wife, leo.
And that just goes to show you; never judge a person by appearances; unless they've told you something themselves, don't assume it to be true.

[fetishdj]

No, I was planning on living forever and never getting old. Ha, got you there.

How did you find out my secret immortality serum? You didn't torture it out of me and make me forget, did you?

[Jennifer Williams]

No, it's a special formula passed down to me by my family, called denial. Works for a lot of problems, actually.

And if I tortured you, the point would be to make you remember it.

[thir]

True, I suppose being anything that isn't the "social norm" will cause, uh...discomfort, I guess.

Just sometimes I get tired of hearing other people's comments on our life. Then I'm stuck with this dilemma: let degrading comments slide, or try to make an argument to defend us? Both options seem so miserable sometimes.

It is irritating, and if you feel like giving a remark back, do, it is good against stomach ulcer ;-)

But I'd say let it go with that, you do not owe anyone any explanations, nor do you need to defend your lifestyle to others. It is none of their business.

I guess maybe the trick is to kind of not give such stupid people power over you by letting them upset you. Easier said than done, but fine when it works :-)

[Jennifer Williams]

I guess maybe the trick is to kind of not give such stupid people power over you by letting them upset you. Easier said than done, but fine when it works.

That is the same advice my mother gave me when I was ten and I was being made fun of for having the "uncool" picture on my lunchbox at school. I guess it applies to everything in life, huh?

[thir]

Well, freedom does mean that we can act as we choose (so long as it's within the law), but it does also mean that people have the right to express their opinions to my face, I guess. .

I would say that freedom means doing what you want without harming others, and what they do is bothering you.

But you are right, it might be that some of them envy you your freedom - sometimes misery likes company, and 'if I cannot have it why should You?'

Rather than taking the example and getting themselves some freedom - which some people might actually do without your noticing it, ever think of that? ;-)

[fetishdj]

No, it's a special formula passed down to me by my family, called denial. Works for a lot of problems, actually.

And if I tortured you, the point would be to make you remember it.

Well, I have to say that you'll never get me to tell

[Ozme52]

No, it's a special formula passed down to me by my family, called denial. Works for a lot of problems, actually.

And if I tortured you, the point would be to make you remember it.

Well, I have to say that you'll never get me to tell

I love watching people during their negotiations.

[pixie_piper]

i'm new to the board but if i may say so, would half of U(u)s really enjoy BDSM quite so much if it wasn't at least a little taboo? Alot of the thrill would be gone. Sure, it's frustrating that other people don't understand or accept what W(w)e do, but in the end i know i personally wouldn't have it any other way. i get crap because i "set the feminist movement back 50 years every time i pick up His dry clean," but i just smile and laugh to myself that they don't know how those clothes got dirty in the first place ;-)

[Jennifer Williams]

Oh, absolutely. The "secretive-ness" of it and sometimes messing with vanilla's heads is certainly fun. And if I walked into a party with a leash around his neck, I would certainly expect people to give us strange looks (it would be kinda freaky if they didn't).

I was just lamenting that it seems you can't do anything these days without someone else telling you you're doing it wrong- what if he went to pick up your dry-cleaning? I'll bet the same people will pipe up with what's wrong with that.

Maybe it's just the same ten people over and over, doing their best to annoy the rest of us...

[pixie_piper]

lol i wouldn't be the least bit surprised. It's an underground society of douche bags who hate their lives and want everyone else to :-P