Does the Haiti earthquake prove that there is no god?

[13'sbadkitty]

It's not that this is evidence against gods in general, just that it is evidence against the standard J/C/I god of the bible. The point is that we don't know, cannot know, whether such gods exist without direct evidence. You can believe, or not believe, whatever you wish, but without tangible evidence it's no better than make-believe.

Here's the thing for me, it may very well be make believe but it works for me. i have tangible evidence that i see as proof that if i explained may mean absolutely nothing to you at all. i watched my oh so fundamentalist mother in church 5 or 6 days and to me it was amusing but to her it brought great comfort. i don't feel that because i don't believe in Jesus that i have the right to ask her to prove it as why would i want to remove her comfort? my ex is a devout athiest and he is as arrogant about it as some born agains are fanatical. no offense to anyone at all, btw. when groups of religious people come knocking at my door to talk, while i doubt i will ever be one of them i like talking to people who enjoy their beliefs so strongly. proof to me is in the eye of the beholder.

[Thorne]

Here's the thing for me, it may very well be make believe but it works for me. i have tangible evidence that i see as proof that if i explained may mean absolutely nothing to you at all.

If it makes you comfortable, then go ahead and believe. I have no quarrel with that. I'm not trying to prove that gods don't exist. I'm only pointing out fallacies in what we are taught about these gods. Fallacies which, to my mind, tend to deny the existence of those gods.

Any evidence which you must explain, or which is only visible to you, is not tangible evidence. While it may be valid evidence for you, enough to sustain your faith, that doesn't help anyone who cannot see it for himself. But if you come to me and attempt to preach your faith as absolute truth, based upon evidence which only you can see, I'm going to preach right back at you about the fallacy of that faith. And if you try to have that belief system forced onto young minds in school as if it were fact, I'll fight against you.

[13'sbadkitty]

If it makes you comfortable, then go ahead and believe. I have no quarrel with that. I'm not trying to prove that gods don't exist. I'm only pointing out fallacies in what we are taught about these gods. Fallacies which, to my mind, tend to deny the existence of those gods.

Any evidence which you must explain, or which is only visible to you, is not tangible evidence. While it may be valid evidence for you, enough to sustain your faith, that doesn't help anyone who cannot see it for himself. But if you come to me and attempt to preach your faith as absolute truth, based upon evidence which only you can see, I'm going to preach right back at you about the fallacy of that faith. And if you try to have that belief system forced onto young minds in school as if it were fact, I'll fight against you.

i actually agree with quite alot of what you said, my beliefs include respecting others paths a valid and true for them. i don't believe i have the right to judge if their path is right. my proof of God is that i no longer use drugs as do lots of people in AA, once we stopped trying on human power. that may sound corny to someone else. do i use that on my kids? not at all! they are left to figure it out. i have done the best i can to introduce as many belief systems to them and they are left to choose one, some, none or all as they see fit. proselytizing, elitism, judgment and blame are not of God at all. that's people.

[Saheli]

do i use that on my kids? not at all! they are left to figure it out.

That's the sad part for me. We are all doing the best we can to figure out what the life around us means. If someone decides there are no gods, if someone decides there are many, if someone decides there is only one, if someone decides that god is really a state of mind...whatever a person believes, why can't other people just leave it alone? There is nothing worse than for someone to attack the way you feel about something and like Thorne said, especially when all they have to defend it is some type of, "Trust me..I know better." That's just insulting. People aren't stupid, and no matter what anyone believes, I don't think that anyone who believes something hasn't thought it through. So I wish that in this area people could just be more understanding. You don't believe the way I do? Fine...you have your reasons, and I have mine. I don't understand why people in this world can't just leave it at that.

I feel like the best thing I can do in life is try to figure out what's important to me, to try my best to not take those things for granted, and to try and leave a positive impact on those around me. It is definitely not my job to try and tell others what to think, and I'm pretty sure we can all agree that people who do that are not only annoying but leave a negative impact. 13'sbadkitty, I think it's really good that you don't try to shove your beliefs down your children's throats. I wish that more people would do the same. This world would be a much more peaceful place if we would just respect the fact that we are all intelligent creatures doing the best we can with what we have.

[Thorne]

We are all doing the best we can to figure out what the life around us means.

This is where I run into difficulties. Why does life have to mean anything? It just is. Why does there have to be something after death? Just because we want it? I would think that knowing this is all there is, this is all the life you will get, should be enough to motivate people to get the most out of that life. Skating through, hoping for some nebulous after-life is just the lazy way out.

People aren't stupid, and no matter what anyone believes, I don't think that anyone who believes something hasn't thought it through.

In my experience there are far too many people who are stupid, or who at least act stupidly. And the large majority of people who believe things don't really know why they believe it. They were raised that way, they were taught that way, so that's how it is. If they did stop to think about it, many would have to decide that they were misled their whole lives. Living in the South, I have seen an awful lot of so-called Christians who can't even understand the 4th grade level of a newspaper, much less the more challenging Bible which they so vehemently espouse.

you have your reasons, and I have mine. I don't understand why people in this world can't just leave it at that.

That works for me! Keep religion out of the schools and the government and I'll be happy to keep science and government out of the churches.

This world would be a much more peaceful place if we would just respect the fact that we are all intelligent creatures doing the best we can with what we have.

Amen!

[Saheli]

This is where I run into difficulties. Why does life have to mean anything? It just is. Why does there have to be something after death? Just because we want it? I would think that knowing this is all there is, this is all the life you will get, should be enough to motivate people to get the most out of that life. Skating through, hoping for some nebulous after-life is just the lazy way out.

lol...well, life doesn't HAVE to mean anything. If life doesn't mean anything, then the answer to what life means is nothing. So then life still means something in that it means nothing. I wasn't trying to say that it HAD to mean something...I just didn't specify that to me, it having no meaning is still its meaning to an individual...no meaning is always an option!

In my experience there are far too many people who are stupid, or who at least act stupidly. And the large majority of people who believe things don't really know why they believe it. They were raised that way, they were taught that way, so that's how it is. If they did stop to think about it, many would have to decide that they were misled their whole lives. Living in the South, I have seen an awful lot of so-called Christians who can't even understand the 4th grade level of a newspaper, much less the more challenging Bible which they so vehemently espouse.

When I said people aren't stupid, I mean that the human being is an intelligent species. I completely agree with you. Humans are intelligent but few choose to act on it...sort of the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Most people don't even care to figure out facts to be able to SHOW wisdom...like you said, "they were raised that way...so that's how it is."

That works for me! Keep religion out of the schools and the government and I'll be happy to keep science and government out of the churches.

Yes, I agree. There was a reason why the founder of this country thought that separation of church and state is a good idea, and I agree with them. Personally, I feel like if you are religious and are completely convinced you're right, why do you feel the need to parade your ideas everywhere? It just seems to me that the people who fight so hard to plaster ideas constantly must not be too convinced of those ideas themselves: otherwise why fight so hard to keep it in people's faces? Isn't that just the basic bandwagon technique? That isn't a good way to convince anyone of anything. It's just childish and annoying.

[DuncanONeil]

Thorne
"That works for me! Keep religion out of the schools and the government and I'll be happy to keep science and government out of the churches."

I think we might all be better off if we could keep Government out of the schools!

[DuncanONeil]

Reading your post created quite a good feeling in me.

But I must tell you that either that little devil deep inside, or the sarcasm bug hit hard.
A thought came to me that you need to relay this information that created such feeling of calm in me to those in Congress and the White House. Perhaps they could learn something from the gems of wisdom embodied in you short message!

That's the sad part for me. We are all doing the best we can to figure out what the life around us means. If someone decides there are no gods, if someone decides there are many, if someone decides there is only one, if someone decides that god is really a state of mind...whatever a person believes, why can't other people just leave it alone? There is nothing worse than for someone to attack the way you feel about something and like Thorne said, especially when all they have to defend it is some type of, "Trust me..I know better." That's just insulting. People aren't stupid, and no matter what anyone believes, I don't think that anyone who believes something hasn't thought it through. So I wish that in this area people could just be more understanding. You don't believe the way I do? Fine...you have your reasons, and I have mine. I don't understand why people in this world can't just leave it at that.

I feel like the best thing I can do in life is try to figure out what's important to me, to try my best to not take those things for granted, and to try and leave a positive impact on those around me. It is definitely not my job to try and tell others what to think, and I'm pretty sure we can all agree that people who do that are not only annoying but leave a negative impact. 13'sbadkitty, I think it's really good that you don't try to shove your beliefs down your children's throats. I wish that more people would do the same. This world would be a much more peaceful place if we would just respect the fact that we are all intelligent creatures doing the best we can with what we have.

[DuncanONeil]

There are fallacies in history books as well.
All likely the result of putting pen to paper! I hope that is the reason, anyway.
I suppose the big thing is; why does it need to proven either way?

If it makes you comfortable, then go ahead and believe. I have no quarrel with that. I'm not trying to prove that gods don't exist. I'm only pointing out fallacies in what we are taught about these gods. Fallacies which, to my mind, tend to deny the existence of those gods.

Any evidence which you must explain, or which is only visible to you, is not tangible evidence. While it may be valid evidence for you, enough to sustain your faith, that doesn't help anyone who cannot see it for himself. But if you come to me and attempt to preach your faith as absolute truth, based upon evidence which only you can see, I'm going to preach right back at you about the fallacy of that faith. And if you try to have that belief system forced onto young minds in school as if it were fact, I'll fight against you.

[Thorne]

There are fallacies in history books as well.
All likely the result of putting pen to paper! I hope that is the reason, anyway.
I suppose the big thing is; why does it need to proven either way?

Sadly, this is quite true. History is, indeed, written by the victors. But recognizing that fact is the first step in correcting the fallacies. And the further removed we are from an historical event, the more likely we are to understand all aspects of that event.

Proving historical events is important because of the understanding we gain of the people involved and the effects of these events upon our own times. Proof of God? I don't need it. And if you have faith, then you don't need it, either. But if you want ME to believe in YOUR god, then you're definitely going to need proof. Verifiable, testable proof.

[DuncanONeil]

I am no longer sure that it is the "victors" that are writing history. Seems that a whole lot of PC activists have decided that they can win the "hearts and minds" of the "young skulls full of mush" by writing history to suit their personal preferences.

One thing that must be made clear here is I have never asked ANYONE to believe in anything that is considered to be God. I can, however, expect and ask a person to act in accordance those precepts that are desireous of civilized polite society everywhere.
Do not forget I am the one that says that in the basic tenents there is no difference among religions.

Sadly, this is quite true. History is, indeed, written by the victors. But recognizing that fact is the first step in correcting the fallacies. And the further removed we are from an historical event, the more likely we are to understand all aspects of that event.

Proving historical events is important because of the understanding we gain of the people involved and the effects of these events upon our own times. Proof of God? I don't need it. And if you have faith, then you don't need it, either. But if you want ME to believe in YOUR god, then you're definitely going to need proof. Verifiable, testable proof.

[Thorne]

I am no longer sure that it is the "victors" that are writing history. Seems that a whole lot of PC activists have decided that they can win the "hearts and minds" of the "young skulls full of mush" by writing history to suit their personal preferences.

The concepts are the same, though. The facts remain constant, but the interpretations can vary. I would prefer to teach the kids the facts and let them make their own conclusions, but for some reason the idea of people actually thinking for themselves is hateful to some people.

One thing that must be made clear here is I have never asked ANYONE to believe in anything that is considered to be God. I can, however, expect and ask a person to act in accordance those precepts that are desireous of civilized polite society everywhere.

That's a laudable goal, for sure. But are you one of those who affirms that those precepts can only come from a belief in a god? Or can you accept the idea that a person can follow no gods and still be a good, civilized person? Unfortunately, there are far too many people who are willing to believe the former rather than the latter.

[DuncanONeil]

That's a laudable goal, for sure. But are you one of those who affirms that those precepts can only come from a belief in a god? Or can you accept the idea that a person can follow no gods and still be a good, civilized person? Unfortunately, there are far too many people who are willing to believe the former rather than the latter.

I would suppose that you would conclude that I am. Since I, based on on study, concluded many years ago that there is, basically, no difference among religions at the root.
Much like I discovered, before leaving high school that skin color had nothing to do with quality of the person. Color has no bearing on the goodness or badness of the person.