The Morality of Abortion!

[denuseri]

It is my opinion that the proponents of "pro-life" everyone seems to like stereotyping are greatly misunderstood, most of the ones I know are all for sex education just opposed to the state sponsored variety with its influence of condoneing sexual intercourse, which we pretty much covered to death and back in another thread.

It is unfortunate that a moral delima does exsist on this issue for "some" people. It is unfortunate that they will dress the issue in any light that doest paint "them" as wrong for thier choice to commit murder.


Fortunately in the United States far wiser people have defined what the legal limits are for us in today's society.

Every cluture is different in that regard.

I personally believe that it is murder at a certian point to provide an abortion.

Where exactly that point "is" will of course vary from individual to individual.

The day after pill is not in my opinion murder. I believe the first tri-mester provides a woman with plenty of time to figure out if she wants to carry her pregnancey to term and still feel "good" about her self if she decides to kill her unborn child with an abortion.

The old fashioned way of doing medicine may have been best (which was mostly abbandoned with the industrial revolution in the later 1800's) the women generally took care of midwifery with little interaction from the men in most cultures. If an abortion was needed it was done and no one need be the wiser.

I am not saying lets remove the technological know-how and revert to the old ways, so much as I am saying if they had never abandonded seperate care practices by gender roles, that it may not be the same "issue" it is today.

Of course back in the day (according to an old Doctor friend of mine) if a woman really needed an abortion the Doctor would preform it, but he was the ultimate authority on weather or not she needed one, the ethical delima was his to debate with himself.

When I posted the Oath of Hippocrates I meant it in the sence it was written, which is that physicians be not involved in the issue lest they break that sacred oath. The Greeks obviously valued the potential life of the unborn much more highly than todays society. Which is why most woman seeking abortions in those days went to other scources like the old crone, or witch, to widwife them.

See to most people back then having a child was a blessing, a gift from thier god or gods. Something to be valued for the miracle it was.

Not generally avoided becuase it inconvienenced you.

Just becuase I say it is murder doesnt mean I don't say that it isnt nessesary at certian times. Like saving the mothers life, or to keep a survivor of rape from having to carry such a child to term.

Murder is after all justified by some societies in certian circumstances, we just like to window dress it to feel better about it later. (as in war or executions or aborations).

Basically it works like this: you want to have sex than be prepared for the consequences. Know that whatever precautions you take you may get preggers and decide accordingly weather or not your little bit of pleasure is worth it.

This lack of responsibility and blatant headonisim pervaded by certian dogmatic agendas with little care for anyone outside the "self" is one of the reasons our western civilization is teetering on the verge of decline.




Here is the link to the sex sducation debate thread I mentions for those that are interested:

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...ight=education

[damyanti]

Here are the historical facts:

The average family in Ancient Greece had 5 children. Healthy babies could be sold into slavery. Unhealthy ones or otherwise defective ones would be exposed. This meant they were left out in the elements to die. Some babies were exposed simply because a soothsayer forcast an evil from the baby. Some exposed babies were taken in by other people.

The ancient Greeks regarded children as little people. They did not regard them as different from big people. By the time a person was about 13 years old, he or she was considered an adult in every respect. Boys were educated separately for their duties as citizens of the state. Girls were educated by their mothers in the home.

Formal education was woefully inadequate in classical Greece. The lax attitude towards formal education reflects two principles; that children were not regarded in their own right, but were, seen as adults-in-waiting; and that an Athenian had supreme confidence in the ability of their children to become like their peers and to understand and to live by their standards and ideals of what it meant to be a good man and a good citizen in a good society. Some of these ideals and standards were very different depending on what part of Greece you were from. This was especially true in the differences in educating the youth in Athens and in Sparta.

Children of both sexes were kept naked while they were very young and boys spent a lot of time naked in athletic training. Greek boys had to contend with an open attitude toward homosexuality.

If you were a wife of a citizen you spent your time secluded at home having babies, cleaning, cooking, spinning and weaving. Since your needs were taken care of you led a pretty easy life. The husband had to work outside the home, shop, attend political meetings and go to war. Women slaves did more menial work including carrying water and wastes, grinding grain, serving, and in some cases providing sex for their masters.

Women were supposed to be confined to the home but there are reports that they are found outside the home. One possible solution to this contradiction is that the women are veiled when they want to be outside the home when it is not appropriate. There is some suggestion that the men felt the women were invisible in this situation.

The Romans and Greeks weren't much concerned with protecting the unborn, and when they did object to abortion it was often because the father didn't want to be deprived of a child that he felt entitled to.

The birth process in women was seen as related to the production of natural goods on which the community depended. The fertility of women was seen as related to the fertility of plants and animals and even of the soil.

If the experience of Agnodice is any indication the women were attended by male doctors at birth, if at all. Men tried to keep Agnodice from becoming a doctor, but the women protested. Women became doctors until the 12th century. Midwifes probably became popular when woman were no longer able to become doctors.

As to the risk of childbirth Medea says "I'd three time rather stand And face a line of shields than once give birth."

Abortion was accepted in both ancient Rome and Greece.

The ancient Greeks tolerated abortions though they were not all that common. During their time it was much safer to carry a baby to full term than have an abortion. Perhaps only one in ten mothers survived an abortion. The ancient Greeks tolerated infanticide. If the newborn baby was malformed then it would be exposed to the elements to die. If the baby was unwanted it could be sold into slavery. There were safer options in those days than abortion.

The early philosophers also argued that a foetus did not become formed and begin to live until at least 40 days after conception for a male, and around 80 days for a female. The philosopher Aristotle wrote:

...when couples have children in excess, let abortion be procured before sense and life have begun; what may or may not be lawfully done in these cases depends on the question of life and sensation. Aristotle, Politics 7.16

Aristotle thought that female embryos developed more slowly than male embryos, but made up for lost time by developing more quickly after birth. He appears to have arrived at this idea by seeing the relative development of male and female foetuses that had been miscarried.

Hippocrates, the father of medicine, described how a dancer came to him with a need for an abortion. Hippocrates caused her to make certain violent jumping dance movements and her baby aborted. He then went on to make important observations about the aborted fetus. Abortion was not common in ancient Greece simply because they practiced infanticide.

During the Roman period the demand for babies dropped and some of the women opted for self-induced abortions which they performed on themselves with a knife. A desperate woman would plunge a dagger into her vagina, killing the baby. This would usually result in the death of the mother as well as the baby. This is a very un-safe practice and many of these women died. It was much safer for the mother to carry the baby to full-term and then expose it or sell it than to try to abort it before birth.

A parent who abandoned a new-born baby to die was not punished in any way. If a person found such a baby they could take it as their own.


The Old Testament has several legal passages that refer to abortion, but they deal with it in terms of loss of property and not sanctity of life.

The status of the foetus as property in the Bible is shown by the law that if a person causes a miscarriage they must pay a fine to the husband of the woman, but if they also cause the woman to die then they are liable to be killed.

The word "abortion" does not appear in any translation of the bible!

Out of more than 600 laws of Moses, none comments on abortion. One Mosaic law about miscarriage specifically contradicts the claim that the bible is antiabortion, clearly stating that miscarriage does not involve the death of a human being. If a woman has a miscarriage as the result of a fight, the man who caused it should be fined. If the woman dies, however, the culprit must be killed:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--Ex. 21:22-25

The bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.

According to the bible, life begins at birth--when a baby draws its first breath. The bible defines life as "breath" in several significant passages, including the story of Adam's creation in Genesis 2:7, when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Jewish law traditionally considers that personhood begins at birth.

The New Testament doesn't explicitly deal with abortion.

Even antiabortionists admit that, their reasoning is stretching Bible verses to claim that fetus is a child too:

Psalm 127:3-5; 128:3-5 -- Children are a blessing, a source of happiness and joy to their parents.
Titus 2:4 -- Young women should be taught to love their children.
Proverbs 22:6; Ephesians 6:4 -- God has made us stewards of our children.

(antiabortionist view) "But an unborn baby is a "child," and a woman who has conceived is a mother even before the baby is born. Abortion does fit the Bible definition of murder. But even if it did not, it would still be sinful because it is unloving, a lack of appreciation for God's blessings, and a gross abuse of our stewardship to raise our children as God directs."

Through much of Western history abortion was not criminal if it was carried out before 'quickening'; that is before the foetus moved in the womb at between 18 and 20 weeks into the pregnancy. Until that time people tended to regard the foetus as part of the mother and so its destruction posed no greater ethical problem than other forms of surgery.

English Common Law agreed that abortion was a crime after 'quickening' - but the seriousness of that crime was different at different times in history.

In 1803 English Statute Law made abortion after quickening a crime that earned the death penalty, but a less serious crime before that.

In 1837 English law abolished the significance of quickening, and also abandoned the death penalty for abortion.

In the 1920s English law added a get-out clause that stopped abortion being a crime if it was "done in good faith for the purpose only of preserving the life of the mother."

This change officially recognised a little-stressed feature of anti-abortion laws; they were often intended to protect women from a dangerous medical procedure, and not to protect the life of the foetus.

In 1938 the important case of R v Bourne decided in favour of an abortion performed on a 14 year old girl who had been raped - the court felt that the girl's mental health would have suffered had she given birth - and this established that the mother's mental suffering could be sufficient reason for an abortion.

The judge (Mr. Justice Macnaghten) put it like this:

...if the doctor is of the opinion, on reasonable grounds and with adequate knowledge, that the probable consequence of the continuance of the pregnancy will be to make the woman a physical or mental wreck, the jury are entitled to take the view that the doctor ... is operating for the purpose of preserving the life of the mother.



Abortion was common in most of colonial America, but it was kept secret because of strict laws against unmarried sexual activity.

Laws specifically against abortion became widespread in America in the second half of the 1800s, and by 1900 abortion was illegal everywhere in the USA, except in order to save the life of the mother.

Some writers have suggested that the pressure to ban abortion was not entirely ethical or religious, but was partially motivated by the medical profession as a way of attacking the non-medical practitioners who carried out most abortions.

Abortions were made legal in the United States in a landmark 1973 Supreme Court judgement, often referred to as the Roe v Wade case.

In 2003 the plaintiff in Roe v Wade asked for the decision to be reversed and put forward questionable evidence that abortion is harmful to women.

Abortion rights faced restriction in 2003 after the US House of Representatives and the US Senate voted to ban late-term 'partial birth' abortions.

[Thorne]

Well done, damyanti! Nice piece of work!

[mkemse]

Here are the historical facts:

The average family in Ancient Greece had 5 children. Healthy babies could be sold into slavery. Unhealthy ones or otherwise defective ones would be exposed. This meant they were left out in the elements to die. Some babies were exposed simply because a soothsayer forcast an evil from the baby. Some exposed babies were taken in by other people.

The ancient Greeks regarded children as little people. They did not regard them as different from big people. By the time a person was about 13 years old, he or she was considered an adult in every respect. Boys were educated separately for their duties as citizens of the state. Girls were educated by their mothers in the home.

Formal education was woefully inadequate in classical Greece. The lax attitude towards formal education reflects two principles; that children were not regarded in their own right, but were, seen as adults-in-waiting; and that an Athenian had supreme confidence in the ability of their children to become like their peers and to understand and to live by their standards and ideals of what it meant to be a good man and a good citizen in a good society. Some of these ideals and standards were very different depending on what part of Greece you were from. This was especially true in the differences in educating the youth in Athens and in Sparta.

Children of both sexes were kept naked while they were very young and boys spent a lot of time naked in athletic training. Greek boys had to contend with an open attitude toward homosexuality.

If you were a wife of a citizen you spent your time secluded at home having babies, cleaning, cooking, spinning and weaving. Since your needs were taken care of you led a pretty easy life. The husband had to work outside the home, shop, attend political meetings and go to war. Women slaves did more menial work including carrying water and wastes, grinding grain, serving, and in some cases providing sex for their masters.

Women were supposed to be confined to the home but there are reports that they are found outside the home. One possible solution to this contradiction is that the women are veiled when they want to be outside the home when it is not appropriate. There is some suggestion that the men felt the women were invisible in this situation.

The Romans and Greeks weren't much concerned with protecting the unborn, and when they did object to abortion it was often because the father didn't want to be deprived of a child that he felt entitled to.

The birth process in women was seen as related to the production of natural goods on which the community depended. The fertility of women was seen as related to the fertility of plants and animals and even of the soil.

If the experience of Agnodice is any indication the women were attended by male doctors at birth, if at all. Men tried to keep Agnodice from becoming a doctor, but the women protested. Women became doctors until the 12th century. Midwifes probably became popular when woman were no longer able to become doctors.

As to the risk of childbirth Medea says "I'd three time rather stand And face a line of shields than once give birth."

Abortion was accepted in both ancient Rome and Greece.

The ancient Greeks tolerated abortions though they were not all that common. During their time it was much safer to carry a baby to full term than have an abortion. Perhaps only one in ten mothers survived an abortion. The ancient Greeks tolerated infanticide. If the newborn baby was malformed then it would be exposed to the elements to die. If the baby was unwanted it could be sold into slavery. There were safer options in those days than abortion.

The early philosophers also argued that a foetus did not become formed and begin to live until at least 40 days after conception for a male, and around 80 days for a female. The philosopher Aristotle wrote:

...when couples have children in excess, let abortion be procured before sense and life have begun; what may or may not be lawfully done in these cases depends on the question of life and sensation. Aristotle, Politics 7.16

Aristotle thought that female embryos developed more slowly than male embryos, but made up for lost time by developing more quickly after birth. He appears to have arrived at this idea by seeing the relative development of male and female foetuses that had been miscarried.

Hippocrates, the father of medicine, described how a dancer came to him with a need for an abortion. Hippocrates caused her to make certain violent jumping dance movements and her baby aborted. He then went on to make important observations about the aborted fetus. Abortion was not common in ancient Greece simply because they practiced infanticide.

During the Roman period the demand for babies dropped and some of the women opted for self-induced abortions which they performed on themselves with a knife. A desperate woman would plunge a dagger into her vagina, killing the baby. This would usually result in the death of the mother as well as the baby. This is a very un-safe practice and many of these women died. It was much safer for the mother to carry the baby to full-term and then expose it or sell it than to try to abort it before birth.

A parent who abandoned a new-born baby to die was not punished in any way. If a person found such a baby they could take it as their own.


The Old Testament has several legal passages that refer to abortion, but they deal with it in terms of loss of property and not sanctity of life.

The status of the foetus as property in the Bible is shown by the law that if a person causes a miscarriage they must pay a fine to the husband of the woman, but if they also cause the woman to die then they are liable to be killed.

The word "abortion" does not appear in any translation of the bible!

Out of more than 600 laws of Moses, none comments on abortion. One Mosaic law about miscarriage specifically contradicts the claim that the bible is antiabortion, clearly stating that miscarriage does not involve the death of a human being. If a woman has a miscarriage as the result of a fight, the man who caused it should be fined. If the woman dies, however, the culprit must be killed:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--Ex. 21:22-25

The bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.

According to the bible, life begins at birth--when a baby draws its first breath. The bible defines life as "breath" in several significant passages, including the story of Adam's creation in Genesis 2:7, when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Jewish law traditionally considers that personhood begins at birth.

The New Testament doesn't explicitly deal with abortion.

Even antiabortionists admit that, their reasoning is stretching Bible verses to claim that fetus is a child too:

Psalm 127:3-5; 128:3-5 -- Children are a blessing, a source of happiness and joy to their parents.
Titus 2:4 -- Young women should be taught to love their children.
Proverbs 22:6; Ephesians 6:4 -- God has made us stewards of our children.

(antiabortionist view) "But an unborn baby is a "child," and a woman who has conceived is a mother even before the baby is born. Abortion does fit the Bible definition of murder. But even if it did not, it would still be sinful because it is unloving, a lack of appreciation for God's blessings, and a gross abuse of our stewardship to raise our children as God directs."

Through much of Western history abortion was not criminal if it was carried out before 'quickening'; that is before the foetus moved in the womb at between 18 and 20 weeks into the pregnancy. Until that time people tended to regard the foetus as part of the mother and so its destruction posed no greater ethical problem than other forms of surgery.

English Common Law agreed that abortion was a crime after 'quickening' - but the seriousness of that crime was different at different times in history.

In 1803 English Statute Law made abortion after quickening a crime that earned the death penalty, but a less serious crime before that.

In 1837 English law abolished the significance of quickening, and also abandoned the death penalty for abortion.

In the 1920s English law added a get-out clause that stopped abortion being a crime if it was "done in good faith for the purpose only of preserving the life of the mother."

This change officially recognised a little-stressed feature of anti-abortion laws; they were often intended to protect women from a dangerous medical procedure, and not to protect the life of the foetus.

In 1938 the important case of R v Bourne decided in favour of an abortion performed on a 14 year old girl who had been raped - the court felt that the girl's mental health would have suffered had she given birth - and this established that the mother's mental suffering could be sufficient reason for an abortion.

The judge (Mr. Justice Macnaghten) put it like this:

...if the doctor is of the opinion, on reasonable grounds and with adequate knowledge, that the probable consequence of the continuance of the pregnancy will be to make the woman a physical or mental wreck, the jury are entitled to take the view that the doctor ... is operating for the purpose of preserving the life of the mother.



Abortion was common in most of colonial America, but it was kept secret because of strict laws against unmarried sexual activity.

Laws specifically against abortion became widespread in America in the second half of the 1800s, and by 1900 abortion was illegal everywhere in the USA, except in order to save the life of the mother.

Some writers have suggested that the pressure to ban abortion was not entirely ethical or religious, but was partially motivated by the medical profession as a way of attacking the non-medical practitioners who carried out most abortions.

Abortions were made legal in the United States in a landmark 1973 Supreme Court judgement, often referred to as the Roe v Wade case.

In 2003 the plaintiff in Roe v Wade asked for the decision to be reversed and put forward questionable evidence that abortion is harmful to women.

Abortion rights faced restriction in 2003 after the US House of Representatives and the US Senate voted to ban late-term 'partial birth' abortions.

Nice Factual Post