The Morality of Abortion!

[AdrianaAurora]

Very often (especially in US) groups who scream PRO LIFE parole are the same who cling to guns and religion. Their religion. They are right, they have all the answers and everyone else is immoral. They argue that they have a right to carry guns and shoot criminals, and apparently they don't need government to regulate that. What strikes me as the biggest hypocrisy of all is that those who argue pro life are usually the same bunch who argue pro capital punishment, "conservative" (though thats a moot point considering they put into office "Mother of All Big Spenders") government spending ie spending as little as possible on welfare projects, preferably nothing.

What is moral? Who has the right to decide that? You? God? In my opinion, any person who panders his religion as the absolute moral imperative and himself as a "prophet authority" should be committed to asylum.

I find it preposterous that those who argue for smaller government, free market and "against those damn liberals telling them how to live" - are the same who think they have a right to meddle into such personal matters of another person.

Whether or not abortion is immoral is irrelevant. No person is better than any other person, no person has the right to tell another what is moral or immoral, no person has the right to tell another person what to do with his/her body.

Whether or not abortion is legal or illegal is irrelevant. Women always had and (most likely) always will have abortions, it is simply the matter of how. Illegal or not, they always found a way, it simply wasn't discussed as publicly. And if that failed - does the word infanticide ring a bell?

You cant force a woman to have a child she doesn't want. As for men having a say in it - until he is the pregnant one, he has no say (that goes both ways, he cant force her to have an abortion or forbid her from having one). Its something even my husband and I disagree on and thats fine - as long as its my choice.

Is the woman who had a baby that is by product of (gang) rape morally superior to a woman who had an abortion after the similar event? Is it moral or immoral to judge either of them for making the choice they have?

Is it moral or immoral to have plastic surgery?

Is it moral or immoral to use contraception?

Is it moral or immoral to whip your partner and call her a slut?

There is no one universal answer, we all have to decide what is right and with what we can live with for ourselves - thats why its called PRO CHOICE.

[Ragoczy]

Is it moral or immoral to have plastic surgery?

Is it moral or immoral to use contraception?

Is it moral or immoral to whip your partner and call her a slut?

Is it moral to kill someone?

Is it moral to rape someone?

Is it moral to steal property from someone?

These are more apt analogies to abortion, because the premise is that another person is involved is fundamental to the objection.

So a question for those who think abortion should be legal:

Abortion on-demand (no edge conditions, just because the woman wants it) in the third trimester? Acceptable or no?

[AdrianaAurora]

Is it moral to kill someone?

Is it moral to rape someone?

Is it moral to steal property from someone?

It on itself its neither moral or immoral, its a matter of social contract.

Abortion on-demand (no edge conditions, just because the woman wants it) in the third trimester? Acceptable or no?

Above all else, I am for prevention (education, contraception....) where such choice is not necessary.

IMO, no.

[Ragoczy]

It on itself its neither moral or immoral, its a matter of social contract.

So if society decides that rape is okay, you're good with that?

Above all else, I am for prevention (education, contraception....) where such choice is not necessary.

IMO, no.

So, abortion on demand in the third trimester isn't acceptable, in your opinion, but should it be legal?

[AdrianaAurora]

So if society decides that rape is okay, you're good with that?

So I do have a choice?

Why should I have any more choice about that than abortion?

Because thats what its all about choice. Its an extremely private and personal issue - and no one but myself, least of all government has the right to make that decision.

[the_moirae]

Abortion on-demand (no edge conditions, just because the woman wants it) in the third trimester? Acceptable or no?

Not even addressing the original "argument" of this thread because...well, let's just move on.

Ragoczy (and all those who agree/believe there should be a ban on "partial-birth" abortion) tell me something please. How many women go through their first and second trimesters, arrive at month seven, eight, or nine, march into a doctor's office of their own volition (sound body/mind), and say: "You know, this whole pregnancy gig just ain't working out for me. I've changed my mind."

THERE ARE ONLY TWO REASONS THE QUESTION OF TERMINATION OF A FETUS WOULD ARISE IN THE FINAL TRIMESTER OF PREGNANCY: SEVERE RISKS TO THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OR THE MOTHER/BABY/BOTH SHOULD GESTATION CONTINUE, OR SEVERE BIRTH DEFECT INDICATING THE CHILD'S LIFE WOULD BE UNSUSTAINABLE OUTSIDE THE WOMB.

That this has even become an issue for debate is ludicrous.

[Ragoczy]

Not even addressing the original "argument" of this thread because...well, let's just move on.

Ragoczy (and all those who agree/believe there should be a ban on "partial-birth abortion) tell me something please. How many women go through their first and second trimesters, arrive at month seven, eight, or nine, march into a doctors office of their own volition (sound body/mind), and say: "You know, this whole pregnancy gig just ain't working out for me. I've changed my mind."

THERE ARE ONLY TWO REASONS THE QUESTION OF TERMINATION OF A FETUS WOULD ARISE IN THE FINAL TRIMESTER OF PREGNANCY: SEVERE RISKS TO THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OR THE MOTHER/BABY/BOTH SHOULD GESTATION CONTINUE, OR SEVERE BIRTH DEFECT INDICATING THE CHILD'S LIFE WOULD BE UNSUSTAINABLE OUTSIDE THE WOMB.

That this has even become an issue for debate is ludicrous.

It's absolutely relevant. And I'll thank you to note that I didn't say abortion of any type should be banned ... I asked questions. If someone's uncomfortable thinking about the question, then maybe that means they have a faulty position on the issue.

The entire premise of support for abortion is that a fetus isn't human and doesn't have rights. If you disagree with that premise and still support abortion, then you support the murder of children.

Therefore, if a fetus isn't a human life, then why isn't abortion on-demand in the third trimester perfectly okay? Why does even raising the question in this discussion draw such a STRONG reaction?

Could it be because the humanness of a "fetus" in the seventh, eighth, ninth month is self-evident? Well, then, we're so damn sure that seven-months-minus-a-day is the magic number for humanity?

The other premise is that it's the mother's body, so her choice. If that's the case, then what difference does it make which month the abortion occurs in? If it's her body and choice that's so important, then it shouldn't matter.

The abortion argument is so full of hypocrisy that it disgusts me.

"It's not a human being ... but we won't allow it in after the seventh month." Because we're sure that's when it becomes human and seven months minus one day it isn't, so it's perfectly all right to kill it then.

"It's the mother's body and choice ... except when the baby's so formed that it makes me feel icky." It's either her choice or it isn't, until you can conclusively demonstrate when human life begins.

"Life begins at conception, so abortion is murder ... except for rape or incest." Because the crimes of the father affect the humanness of the child? My ass.

[SnickerKitten]

THERE ARE ONLY TWO REASONS THE QUESTION OF TERMINATION OF A FETUS WOULD ARISE IN THE FINAL TRIMESTER OF PREGNANCY: SEVERE RISKS TO THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OR THE MOTHER/BABY/BOTH SHOULD GESTATION CONTINUE, OR SEVERE BIRTH DEFECT INDICATING THE CHILD'S LIFE WOULD BE UNSUSTAINABLE OUTSIDE THE WOMB.

That this has even become an issue for debate is ludicrous.

I drove a friend of mine to a clinic because she had gotten warts and was having them removed. While in the waiting room I met a woman that was 7 1/2 months pregnant and was having a late term abortion because her boyfriend had broken up with her. There was absolutely no known risk to her continuing to carry the baby and the baby was viable outside the womb. She merely didn't want to raise the baby herself and for whatever reason refused to consider adoption.

To relate this back to the topic of the thread- was her choice immoral? Yes, absolutely. She killed needlessly.

Are there times when abortion is definately immoral? Yes, absolutely. When the infant is at a point that it could survive outside the womb it does not endanger the mother any more to have an induced birth than to have a late term abortion- in fact, the only real difference between the two is that in am induced labor they preserve the life of the infant and in a preterm abortion they suck the brain out before the head is fully delivered. Four more inches and it would just be an induced newborn.

Is it immoral to use abortion as a chosen form of birth control? "Oh, *if* I get pregnant I'll just have an abortion." "I don't need to worry about birth control, there's always abortion." IMO, yes!

Is it immoral to get an abortion if you get pregnant as a result of rape? I wouldn't care if it was or not, but I *personally* would certainly abort that child.

Is it immoral to get an abortion if you find out there is something "wrong" with the child you are carrying? I've had a very set opinion on this question many times. Having a child that was diagnosed with autism has given me a very powerful insight into what it is to raise a special needs child. If I knew then what I know now..... Let me tell you, that's one of those things that drives home the old reference to walking in someone else's shoes before judging them.

For the record-because individuals views on abortion were pointed out earlier in this thread to be predictable based on their social and political views: my political stance is decidedly conservative although I am not a Republican. My fiscal stance is also decidedly conservative and I am completely against any type of "redistribution of wealth", as far as social welfare programs go, I'm not at all supportive of giving "handouts" for longer than a VERY brief term and to instead provide job training and job opportunities (providing daycare for other "welfare" families, etc). My religious stance is- I'm not a practicing member of any religion. My view on capital punishment is- much as my darling husband opposes it and has tried to change my opinion, I support it.

So my bottom line opinion on whether abortion is moral or immoral is that it is more immoral than moral but is excusable in some situations.

-kitten

[hopperboo]

Are there times when abortion is definately immoral? Yes, absolutely. When the infant is at a point that it could survive outside the womb it does not endanger the mother any more to have an induced birth than to have a late term abortion- in fact, the only real difference between the two is that in am induced labor they preserve the life of the infant and in a preterm abortion they suck the brain out before the head is fully delivered. Four more inches and it would just be an induced newborn.

Is it immoral to use abortion as a chosen form of birth control? "Oh, *if* I get pregnant I'll just have an abortion." "I don't need to worry about birth control, there's always abortion." IMO, yes!

Is it immoral to get an abortion if you get pregnant as a result of rape? I wouldn't care if it was or not, but I *personally* would certainly abort that child.

Is it immoral to get an abortion if you find out there is something "wrong" with the child you are carrying? I've had a very set opinion on this question many times. Having a child that was diagnosed with autism has given me a very powerful insight into what it is to raise a special needs child. If I knew then what I know now..... Let me tell you, that's one of those things that drives home the old reference to walking in someone else's shoes before judging them.

I agree.





My opinion on this topic:
If one is old enough to have consensual sex, and they are just not taking the precautions of safe sex then I don't believe abortions should be allowed (unless the mothers life is in danger or the child has a physical/mental problem - in which the parents should have the ability to choose). I don't think age should be a variable either. If a 14-year-old is having consensual sex and just not taking the precautions I don't believe abortion should be an option for her. I am of a very pro-choice mindset; Abstinence, contraception, adoption.

I don't believe in the common thinking that a child isn't a child until it can breathe on it's own. If this was truly the case then we wouldn't be bothered by trying to incubate premature babies, nor would we have courts trying a man for two murders when he kills a pregnant woman. A fetus is a baby from the moment of conception. Without the moment of conception one wouldn't have the baby.

I think people in general find the idea of terminating a fetus much easier than the idea of terminating a baby.

It's a very slippery slope, and this is just my opinion on the topic.

And as for men's rights (which they have none)...I personally don't believe a woman should be allowed to have an abortion without written consent of the father of the child. Perhaps that is going to far, but that is the man's child too, having it inside of you [a woman] doesn't make it only her choice. The baby was made together and decisions about it should be made together.... That is just IMHO.

[damyanti]

When people use “I believe” and therefore it shouldn't be “allowed” reasoning its a very dangerous ground, as witnessed throughout history.

My personal moral views are conservative (in some cases extremely so), but that's all they are MY morals, it would be immoral to force them upon someone else. Laws should be liberal. I don't think government or anyone else has the right to pass judgement in that kind of decisions.

Its very easy to pass judgement in theory, but human reality is different...every human is different, we deal and react to situations differently.

Legality of abortion is such a sensitive question because it is never that simple, it isn't just about terminating pregnancy...its about personal liberties, a right to choice, invasion of privacy, someone else making decisions concerning your body...

How many people, including those who say they are pro life, eat meat? I believe that is immoral, I believe its against religion, I believe that its murder and its a sin.....but I just don't have enough...(not quite sure which word to use) arrogance, shamelessness, to say that it should not be allowed at all or made illegal for everyone else too. Its a matter of personal choice...whether one will do something just because he/she can.

Most people find the idea of eating meat much easier without thinking that it once was a living being, they find it easier to think of it as ham rather than animal corpse. And lets not forget that humans are animals too. So if we are to ban abortion based on the premise that life is life, it will make possible to ban animal killing.

No contraception is 100% reliable.

To force a victim of rape to have a child...I find the idea horrifying beyond imagination, to me its more violating than rape itself.

Where is the prudence in creating teenage mothers, how is that good for society?

As for making all abortion illegal...its pointless. As it has been pointed out several times before, if a woman wants to have an abortion she will not matter whether its legal or illegal she will find a way. There will always be doctors or butchers in back ally offering their services. We have an abortion pill available today. There are old “remedies” such as herbal teas. Even those who officially think its wrong want a legal loophole just in case (Ireland has voted five times in the past 20 years on its abortion laws, most recently deciding to continue to allow women to have an abortion if they say they are suicidal - a loophole the government and Catholic Church wanted closed).

I am interested what kind of punishment would those who seek to make abortion illegal impose on unwilling mothers?

I do think that its immoral to use abortion as a form of contraception...it should be the very last resort, and its why I preach education, education, education...but would it be any less immoral to force that woman to go through pregnancy and have an unwanted child? Will those people who coerced her into having it, take responsibility for that child...my guess is no, so isn't that immoral?

Personally, I have no intention of finding myself in such situation, but who knows what life brings...could I go through with it, I don't know, I am tilting towards no, but it would depend on the circumstances....what I do know is that I am more likely to keep it if I have a choice than I would be if abortion were illegal.

I feel lucky that I live in a country where the right to choice is a given fact. We are characterized as a conservative, Catholic country, yet it was never an issue, certainly not in my lifetime and it was never a point of debate in an election campaign. Sometime ago someone mentioned something about abortion being an active issue in US and therefore we should make it here too, (God, I hate when European politicians try to copy American ones), but no one took the said person seriously (as evidenced by the fact I cant even remember who it was), he was labelled an extremest loonie, people paid him no attention and no one ever made a peep about it again.

My point is...whether you think its immoral is irrelevant – a woman's body, a woman's choice. It doesn't concern you.

[shayna{L_D}]

To force a victim of rape to have a child...I find the idea horrifying beyond imagination, to me its more violating than rape itself.






My point is...whether you think its immoral is irrelevant – a woman's body, a woman's choice. It doesn't concern you.

Point one. thank you very much for saying that. I wouldnt have said it better myself.


Point two: amen. my body is my body i will do what i want with it. i will do what *I* see fit.

this will be my only two cents on this topic thank you Damyanti for saying it better then i could, or would have dared.

[lucy]

deleted because i'm not sure whether i pointed a finger or not. i think i didn't. but still, better safe than banned

[lucy]

I have yet to meet a woman who actually wants an abortion. I don't know how this is in other countries, whether in other societies abortion is considered just another form of contraceptive. That would be indeed wrong, imho. And stupid too.

I know quite a few women who have been in that situation, myself included (although i had a spontaneus abortion and so was spared to go to a clinic i would have done it), and not one of them took the decision to have an abortion easily.

[lookingforsomething]

I have read through all the different posts, and thought about it a great deal. I hesitated quite a bit over responding, because generally the forum seems to be split into two groups pro and against. When ever someone has brought up the abortion debate, responses generally get heated.
I have always been personally against abortion, but supported it in case of rape, or women’s well being, or if the baby/foetus was disabled (I don’t agree with resuscitation if the child is brain damaged, etc etc. my niece is severely brain damaged due to resuscitation after child birth complications) so if a child has obvious difficulties with life, I don’t agree with forcing the mother to go on with the pregnancy.
I didn’t agree with women having abortions, just because they where an “accident” because why didn’t they take better care not to have accidents.
I did believe in a woman’s right to choose though, each person has a right to make a choice, if they where willing to give up their bodies to grow this new life, be sick for months on end, and may lose their jobs, partners. Life isn’t as easy as a broad general statement; it is easy to decide for other people, harder to live with the decision you make.
Also the women who face honour killings, and its not as rare as you think, the destructive disaster of a surprise pregnancy is not as simple as saying this is a contract and you are killing a baby. A woman who fall pregnant by accident and faces death, now tell me, should she have the baby then to face definite death, or be murdered before she has the baby. So then you have the loss of both.
I must say anyone who wants to abort at 7.5 months is stupid, and should not be allowed, because that baby will survive on its own, the baby should be delivered and given up to adoption.
In Australia, abortions up to 16 weeks is allowed, up to 12 weeks you have a normal on the spot termination, while 13-16 weeks they give tablets and do stuff then you have to come back the next day and they complete the abortion. We don’t have a cooling off period, you can call and book in and do it then and there.
I was faced with this decision; I will not say what I decided. But until you have to face this decision, you wouldn’t believe how hard it is, you can imagine it, but it is nothing like the actually thing. It was the hardest thing I had to decide in my life, ever!!! My divorce which was happening at the time was a walk in the park compared to the abortion decision, and my divorce was a nasty destructive one...
Illegal abortion is a leading cause of death among women of reproductive age in developing countries, killing around 100,000 women a year. While in the comfort of USA legal abortions have been ranked as 11 times safer than child birth, yes child birth is still quite dangerous to a woman’s health, and by choosing to have the baby she risks her own well being. Maternal mortality has dropped by 40% since 1970’s when abortions became legal. This points out that if abortions are legal or illegal, women will still decide for themselves. Educate them, supply them with easy to access protection, and then provide a safe healthy environment for them to decide and choose what they want to do…
That is my personal point of view, hence I used lots of I think… thank you for reading.

[shayna{L_D}]

But until you have to face this decision, you wouldn’t believe how hard it is, you can imagine it, but it is nothing like the actually thing. It was the hardest thing I had to decide in my life, ever!!!

er maybe i should read all the posts before i start going on a posting spreee


Thank you! i had a whole post written up, but i deleted it, no need for people to read what i think on this topic. But thanks for this imput i totally agree to the tenth power.

[Thorne]

Abortion on-demand (no edge conditions, just because the woman wants it) in the third trimester? Acceptable or no?

Third trimester? Not acceptable, except to save the life of the mother.

First trimester? Acceptable IF the mother desires it, but only the mother has the right to decide. She cannot be forced to have the abortion, nor can she be forced to carry the fetus against her will.

Second trimester? Here's the real problem. This is the foggy area where most pro-abortion people, I think, run aground. This is where, IMO, the question of "humanness" comes into play. I don't know where the dividing line is, but if there is one, it's in this time frame.

There is a point in the development of the fetus where extraordinary medical intervention can save the baby if it is delivered prematurely. There is another point where the child can survive with no or minimal intervention. Somewhere between these two points has to be the demarcation.

But regardless, I don't feel it's the government's business to determine whether or not a woman can abort her fetus. That has to be her own choice, and her own conscience must guide her.

[SnickerKitten]

Third trimester? Not acceptable, except to save the life of the mother.

That's the thing, though. In the majority of the third trimester the baby is viable outside the womb. Why should the baby have to *die* when all that is really needed is to remove it from the womb??? In order to do a partial birth abortion they induce labor and suck out the infant's brain after the body has been delivered (they pull them breech) but before the head has come out. Therefore it is no more stress on the mother's body than a birth would be. In my opinion, killing a baby just before it's delivered when it could live on it's own if you didn't suck it's brain out is ALWAYS murder.

-kitten