Dirty Words

[Flaming_Redhead]

I have nothing against erotic humiliation. In fact, it's one of my major turn-ons. I'll happily answer to just about anything my lover chooses to call me. What I do have a problem with in this lifestyle is the almost constant verbal degradation of those perceived to be at the extreme end of the spectrum in regards to submission. We call them all manner of things, including unsophisticated, timid, needy, and weak, but most often, we refer to them as doormats.

Society lauds the accomplishments of the strong, independent, self-sufficient go-getters while condemning those who are self-effacing and meek. Feminists have done much to alleviate the notion that women are somehow inferior to men in intellect and ability as was common conjecture until the mid 1900s. However, somewhere along the way, those who didn't live up to the Wonder Woman image of modern times became scapegoats and targets of derision.

Just observe how many submissive women feel it necessary to state that they aren't weak and don't need a dominant male to make their lives complete. Obviously, there is still a stigma attached to being submissive, even amongst those in the lifestyle. Further evidence of this can be seen in the number of dominant males who feel it necessary to proclaim that they only seek those who have something besides themselves to bring to the table. Apparently, the gift of submission isn't held in as high esteem as lifestylers would have one believe.

It seems to me, from my observations, that these dominant males seeking strong females don't want to be needed. They want her to take care of herself as well as him. She can be a CEO in the real world, but she's to be nothing more than a fetch-and-carry when she gets home. WTF?!? On the other hand, there are plenty of submissive females who love to reiterate again and again that they submit by choice and not by need. Since when did need become a dirty word? You can talk about taking a break from reality when you get home all you want, but it still leaves the question as to what to do about those for which this isn't a game to be played in the bedroom but a real life need to be dominated and controlled in order to be a happy and functioning member of society.

Why, especially here, should people who are deeply submissive be made to feel that they are subhuman and something to be avoided at all costs. Why aren't they, instead, praised and emulated? Why are those who are willing to do anything to please their master regarded as unhealthy and undesirable?

Tom of Sweden loves his wife/slave whom he considers a doormat. There's another married M/s couple on another BDSM site whose posts detail the fact that she is loved and cherished above all else, even though she's the type that unless you take her by the hand and lead her out will stand in the subway all day letting others go first. With all the soul-searching I've done over the last 2 years or so, I've come to realize, or maybe knew all along but was afraid to admit even to myself, that I would be happiest if I could just be myself, a stereotypical weak woman, enslaved by and dependent upon her master, instead of trying to convince myself and everyone else that I'm exactly the opposite.

The question burning in my mind is this. With so few masters actually willing to be entirely responsible for another human being, where does that leave the truely submissive? Where can they (we?) find a safe haven and acceptance, if not here in the lifestyle? With everyone encouraging others to just be themselves, why does it always feel like they're (we're?) not included?

[LewisC]

All subs need to be treated the way they need to be treated. Without topping from the bottom, they need to set limits, if they need them. Write to me at biggreek100@aol.com

[cadence]

Excellent topic, thanks Flaming Redhead
I would answer, but I think I may be all over the place and will undoubtably contradict myself.
I need to think about this before I answer.

I am looking forward to hearing what others have to say.

[good_girl]

we refer to them as doormats.

Just my thought but I had always perceived a doormat to be someone who accepts that which she doesn’t really want…not as in punishment for an indiscretion but in life in general, a person who is not willing to speak up or act when things aren’t right for her.

there are plenty of submissive females who love to reiterate again and again that they submit by choice and not by need.

Again, just my thought….isn’t making the choice to fulfill a need still a choice?
I need to be healthy, and I choose to take care of my body in order to fulfill that need, I could make the choice to become a couch potato and have that need unfulfilled.

Why, especially here, should people who are deeply submissive be made to feel that they are subhuman and something to be avoided at all costs. Why aren't they, instead, praised and emulated? Why are those who are willing to do anything to please their master regarded as unhealthy and undesirable?

I personally, have never gotten the impression that anyone here feels this way. The feelings I have always gotten are more along the lines of jealousy…I have heard time and time again “oh you’re so lucky to have found the one, you must be so happy”

For me happy is the key word here…many people go through life simply existing, not truly happy (been there done that) it takes a strong person imo to know what makes them truly happy and to do whatever it takes to achieve this. I also think my idea of a doormat is very unlikely to find this happiness…probably about as likely as winning the lotto.

All just my personal opinions though

[MissLiss]

Okay this is my first post and now I'm just gonna throw it out there...

As I read this, my immediate thoughts are that it takes a strong person to accept being one hundred percent dependent on another human being in all aspects of life.

I am one of those people whose parents are part of the drastically increasing divorce statistics, and I live my life in fear of not belonging to somebody, of being alone, of having given it all, just to be left with a door slammed in my face one day...

So I am doing the whole struggle, trying to be an independent woman, striving to find happiness in just being myself...but the more I do that the more lonely and unhappy I feel! People are not meant to be alone...and to submit to another person and give them your body (including your heart), is a strong and daring choice.

Your post sets alot of thoughts going for me on the choice of fulfilling needs, and if what you feel the need to do/want to do is always what is best for you?, and what a truly submissive person, having build her life completely around her master, does the day he leaves her or dies before her?

I really appreciate all the serious topics being brought up today...it is really good to get some debate

[DowntownAmber]

Great topic to bring up Redhead. I'll pick through and comment from my own perspective. Apologies in advance if I get long winded!

I have nothing against erotic humiliation. In fact, it's one of my major turn-ons. I'll happily answer to just about anything my lover chooses to call me. What I do have a problem with in this lifestyle is the almost constant verbal degradation of those perceived to be at the extreme end of the spectrum in regards to submission. We call them all manner of things, including unsophisticated, timid, needy, and weak, but most often, we refer to them as doormats.

Society lauds the accomplishments of the strong, independent, self-sufficient go-getters while condemning those who are self-effacing and meek. Feminists have done much to alleviate the notion that women are somehow inferior to men in intellect and ability as was common conjecture until the mid 1900s. However, somewhere along the way, those who didn't live up to the Wonder Woman image of modern times became scapegoats and targets of derision.

Just observe how many submissive women feel it necessary to state that they aren't weak and don't need a dominant male to make their lives complete. Obviously, there is still a stigma attached to being submissive, even amongst those in the lifestyle.

I am one of those women that is perfectly comfortable on my own, taking care of myself and being dominant in the majority of my interactions. "Wonder Woman" would be a huge stretch, lol, but it would be pretty unlikely that I would be described as submissive by very many people outside of immediate lifestyle contacts. That's me, who I am at my core. I play to my strengths.

When I see someone who is submissive an all aspects of their life, I don't immediately label them a doormat and I am not offended by them in any way. In fact, I have deep respect for those that are submissive in all aspects and strive to be the best sub they can be. To me, that is a person playing to their strengths, and being the best they can be at what they want to do and feel compelled to do.

When I refer to someone as a "doormat," I am referring to someone that does not strive to embrace their submission, but defers to it becuase they just don't feel worthy to be anything else. To me, that is an insult to submission and many submissives. Submission is a level of service and personality, not the default reaction to low self-esteem.

Further evidence of this can be seen in the number of dominant males who feel it necessary to proclaim that they only seek those who have something besides themselves to bring to the table. Apparently, the gift of submission isn't held in as high esteem as lifestylers would have one believe.

I'm not sure I would say that. My submission to J was special to him because it was something very few people would or could ever get from me. It was exclusive. It made him feel special to recieve something unique. It made me feel the same way to give it.

It seems to me, from my observations, that these dominant males seeking strong females don't want to be needed. They want her to take care of herself as well as him. She can be a CEO in the real world, but she's to be nothing more than a fetch-and-carry when she gets home. WTF?!?

Again, I think it's a matter of exclusivity - the desire to be needed by someone who doesn't need simply for the sake of it - they (the Dominant)are wanted for something very special that only they can seem to provide for the submissive.

I need a bit of clarification here as well... When you say "she's to be nothing more than a fetch-and-carry when she gets home," I sense a little of the same predjudice that this post seems to be appealing against. I myself don't care for the phrase "nothing more than."

On the other hand, there are plenty of submissive females who love to reiterate again and again that they submit by choice and not by need. Since when did need become a dirty word? You can talk about taking a break from reality when you get home all you want, but it still leaves the question as to what to do about those for which this isn't a game to be played in the bedroom but a real life need to be dominated and controlled in order to be a happy and functioning member of society.

I don't know if "need" is a dirty word, but "choice" is indeed a beautiful one. If it weren't an issue of choice and simply one of need, I guess the specifics of our partners wouldn't be an issue. We could all just line up as Doms and subs and pair off.

For example, I need to eat. But I choose what I like, I choose to take time to prepare it and serve it, or I choose not to care. If I just answered the need I could eat dirt and get by.

I also don't think that submission is a game to those who are dominant in their day to day. Because you are not submissive to everyone does not make you less submissive to your particular Dom.

Why, especially here, should people who are deeply submissive be made to feel that they are subhuman and something to be avoided at all costs. Why aren't they, instead, praised and emulated? Why are those who are willing to do anything to please their master regarded as unhealthy and undesirable?

Tom of Sweden loves his wife/slave whom he considers a doormat. There's another married M/s couple on another BDSM site whose posts detail the fact that she is loved and cherished above all else, even though she's the type that unless you take her by the hand and lead her out will stand in the subway all day letting others go first. With all the soul-searching I've done over the last 2 years or so, I've come to realize, or maybe knew all along but was afraid to admit even to myself, that I would be happiest if I could just be myself, a stereotypical weak woman, enslaved by and dependent upon her master, instead of trying to convince myself and everyone else that I'm exactly the opposite.

The question burning in my mind is this. With so few masters actually willing to be entirely responsible for another human being, where does that leave the truely submissive? Where can they (we?) find a safe haven and acceptance, if not here in the lifestyle? With everyone encouraging others to just be themselves, why does it always feel like they're (we're?) not included?

I certainly hope that because I am who I am, I don't act like I am better than anyone else. I will admit though, I do worry about the safety of subs that sub to anyone and anything, and I worry about the Masters that seek out a sub that will be collared without any type of criteria for the one that collars her. Those are the "doormats" to me and it's scary how easily they can be damaged and taken advantage of.

Everyone, I think, should have enough respect for themselves and their role to be the best sub or Dom or whatever they can be. If you're subbing because you think you have no value and that's what you deserve, I simply see a problem.

[damyanti]

Great topic, I think in part its due to the fact that we live in an age of individuality and self sufficiency...and it has been built into our communal conscience that individuality equals freedom and it must be preserved at all cost.

I think a lot of submissives, myself included, are intimidated and scared by such complete and utter surrender. Too many horror stories, too many trust issues. But I have never judged those who choose it as bdsm (slave) lifestyle, but rather when I say doormat I mean what good_girl said:

Just my thought but I had always perceived a doormat to be someone who accepts that which she doesn’t really want…not as in punishment for an indiscretion but in life in general, a person who is not willing to speak up or act when things aren’t right for her.

I am not much into humiliation, especially verbal and there is a level of freedom and independence I find almost unimaginable ever giving up. My problem is actually on the opposite side, and its the reason I am reevaluating wisdom of actively pursuing this,...I am "stronger" than most men who proclaim themselves dominant.

Apparently, the gift of submission isn't held in as high esteem as lifestylers would have one believe.

It seems to me, from my observations, that these dominant males seeking strong females don't want to be needed. They want her to take care of herself as well as him. She can be a CEO in the real world, but she's to be nothing more than a fetch-and-carry when she gets home.

Precisely, and I am coming to this from the opposite end...words "lazy boy" come to mind.

I am one of those "strong, independent, self-sufficient" types, (I still work on the go-getter part, lol). I am also submissive....but while I may be quiet and reserved, I am far from meek...and that tends to shock and baffle men up.

As you say they "feel it necessary to proclaim that they only seek those who have something besides themselves to bring to the table", but you have nothing to worry about,...most pretty soon discover it is just too much bother and that there are easier "doormat" fish to fry.

Since when did need become a dirty word?

True, I have had the same thought myself...it depends on your definition of need. Just because I don't need him, doesn't mean I don't need him.

[yummysubmummy]

I'm very new at this lifestyle but I must have missed the day when they gave out the manuals on how to be the best submissive. It seems that there is possibly a lot of (behind the scenes) competition amongst subs to determine who is the 'best' submissive. I find this concept bizarre; to me it is as ludicrous as my vanilla friends having a secret competition on who is the 'best' heterosexual. (Sorry can't think of a more suitable simile)

Surely all submissives can find a safe haven in this lifestyle? I can understand that the world at large may not accept/condone the concept of total submission but I wouldn't have imagined there would be many more places more open-minded than where we all are today. Of course, I speak from a general point of view; I am well aware that in all walks of life there is the occasional t*rd that graces the sidewalk - we just need to learn to step around those!

[Polaris]

What an interesting topic, thanks for posting it! I'll try and add my own perspective to this...

Personally, the need to be wonder woman to be an acceptable member of society annoys me. It is a general tendency -- kink aside -- that women are expected to achieve and overachieve, to have it all: a career, a loving family, children, success, money, the perfect partner, perfect car, perfect looks, perfect life. How to achieve all that is beyond me, and I for my part am not willing to run after an image that's entirely constructed and entirely unrealistic...I may be missing a vital clue, but I don't believe that having everything is possible at all. I am not that old yet -- 26 to be exact -- and I am all stressed out at times about how to manage my life so that it will fit conveniently into the drawer labeled "things you need to have as a woman to be happy or at least content". Fact is, I don't buy it. It is not the life I wish to live, and it should be about choice, not being wonder woman. Anyway, I'm just rambling and not making a real point.

Thing is, if I take my submissivness into the calculation things get even more complicated. I am both, independent and dependent. I am needy as hell, I am usually very focussed on the few people really close to me -- and I want (need) a lot of attention and care. On the other hand, I need a bit of space too. I don't really know how to put it. I am submissive in all areas of my life. I am not a leader-type personality, I don't like to make decisions -- especially not for others -- and I am most comfortable in my skin when I can play a supportive role, and have somebody to tell me what to do. I struggled with this for a long time -- simply because it is what is called weakness more often than not -- but I honestly don't believe that it is weakness, it's just a different kind of strength. I am happier if I simply accept it as it is, and act accordingly. I am calmer if I do so. I am more effective, too. And I figured people don't perceive me as weak simply because I instinctively tend to follow the lead of others -- not blindly, but naturally if the direction is reasonable and the course of action makes sense to me.

To move from a more public to a more private sphere. I want to be dominated. I crave it. I need it. It centres me, balances me, it brings some structure into the chaos I tend to make out of my life. Being submissive makes me stronger, not weaker. It definitely makes me happier, saner, healthier. Having somebody in my life who genuinely cares for me -- somebody I can submit to without having to worry about the consequences -- is, in the long run, a necessity I think. This is not to say that I would stop to function in the world if there were nobody to tell me what to do, not at all. I can be self-sufficient, independent, I can manage my life rather well. But to be at my best, my happiest, my contentest -- I need to give up the control and submit to something more assertive and dominant than me. I hope that makes some sense.

Now that I've established a need -- and it's not that easy to call it what it is -- there comes the next problem. I do not want to run into something that is bad for me simply because I have a need. I admit that at times I'm a doormat -- in the bad sense. It's impulses I've learned my whole life and which I can't quite get rid of now. At times I let people walk all over me. When people close to me are unhappy, I'm the one to walk the extra miles over and over again to make them happier. This is nothing bad per se. But it is a personality trait that attracts a certain breed of people who are incredibly harmful, and who will take, take, take and then take some more until you have nothing left and are really just that -- a doormat, but one who keeps asking for me, and who gets walked over perpetually until it is so worn down that it breaks. This, to me, is not submission but a kind of unhealthy behaviour. Submission, to me, requires one to submit and one to dominate -- and dominate doesn't mean 'walk all over you'. It's a balanced dynamic of equal respect and trust, where there is a harmonious give and take. Of course it is not always fun to submit, and of course at times you end up doing things that don't give you the greatest satisfaction (at least not in the very moment), but in the end you get so much in return that very often it appears to me that I receive much more than I give...so I give more, and they give more, and everybody is happy and content. This is entirely different to being a doormat. It's a dynamic that is terrifying and wonderful at the same time, and which is -- I have no doubt -- considered as unhealthy by some if not many. To me, in the fragments I was allowed to live to this point, it is the sanest thing I have ever done. To me, knowing about it and not attempting to change my being to fit society, has taken away a lot of pressure and doubt. I can reflect about my needs and wants now, and I can make decisions based on these reflections. This also means that I don't have to be an involuntary doormat. It means that I can choose the right person and be a doormat for him. Because I want it, crave it, need it. And because he understands what it is all about and cherishes me no matter the way I am -- or maybe because of it.

Now this is a long post, and it sounds somewhat...I don't know, a little overly romantic to my pragmatic ears. In the end, it's a simple thing. I am the way I am, and trying to be somebody else doesn't make me happy. Everybody should have the right to express themselves in whatever way they choose, to live a life they feel is right for them -- and that, I believe, makes a good ending line.

[jeanne]

Very well said, Polaris.

jeanne

[IAmCanadian]

Great post, Polaris.

This in particular struck me:

"I am all stressed out at times about how to manage my life so that it will fit conveniently into the drawer labeled "things you need to have as a woman to be happy or at least content".

I have long been a believer in the idea that a woman's life can be made more enjoyable with a reduction in complexity. While this is rooted in my own sadistic sexual kinks, I think it has practical relationship applications as well.

Picking up some of the slack for a slave, caring for her and directing her, allowing her life to become less complex but no less enjoyable, is something I enjoy very much.

It also ties in with humiliation play for me. As you point out in your opening paragraph, people equate complexity with worth. Of course it isn't true that her giving up any of her complexity makes her any less valuable- but that doesn't mean she and I can't pretend it does for an hour or so each day ^_^.

And as for Flaming_Redhead's original post:

Why are those who are willing to do anything to please their master regarded as unhealthy and undesirable?

If this actually happens, it is a tragedy. A slave to whom total submission, dependance and obedience comes naturally is a rare and precious sort. A master who is willing to accept responsibility for such a submissive and make her a part of his life will find great reward if he is able to treat how her she needs to be treated.

Perhaps some Doms see it this way- the more self-sufficient the female, the greater their margin for error. With total submission, a Dom is essentially responsible for another life- and some people can't even keep a goldfish alive, so that can be a scary thought. I *do* want to be needed, though. The dependance of another on me, totally, would add great value to my own life, and make it twice over more worth living to the fullest. There's nothing wrong with that, and I don't find it unhealthy and undesirable at all.

- FS

[Soaul]

Paradoxically, what we all have in common is that we are each unique! Therefore, we deserve to be treated as unique.

Too often 'cookie cutter' protocols are used to treat submissive/slaves. This is OK in the training and consideration phase but once a slave the Master should know enough about his/her slave to know what is the slave needs and what limits need to be pushed. Yet, the slave doesn't know either; so there is exploration and pushing of limits is the rule. This is where safe words play a role--at least in the early stages.

Open communication and honest feedback is keep to maintaining any relationship...including a D/s and M/s ones. You are a doormat if that is what you want/need. Ironically, a Master not treating like a doormat when it is what you want/need is abuse.

So, the answer to your post is complicated by the uniqueness of the Master/Dom and the slave/sub. Perfect matching is impossible but the continuous effort is to match control with needs.

[Guest110308]

There's another married M/s couple on another BDSM site whose posts detail the fact that she is loved and cherished above all else, even though she's the type that unless you take her by the hand and lead her out will stand in the subway all day letting others go first.
I would like to thank Redhead and all others who have posted previously to me.
Maybe i am reading some meaning into this that isnt there, But when did being a caring. kind person who enjoys helping others become a bad thing?
I think that realizing your nature is never a bad thing, and that there is room in the lifestyle for every type of submissive, Switch or Dom/ma. I think that if you have realized that you have a need to be dominated, that you have discovered a Beautiful Part of yourself. I guess i just dont like the word doormat.

[icey]

interesting thread

I have nothing against erotic humiliation. In fact, it's one of my major turn-ons. I'll happily answer to just about anything my lover chooses to call me. What I do have a problem with in this lifestyle is the almost constant verbal degradation of those perceived to be at the extreme end of the spectrum in regards to submission. We call them all manner of things, including unsophisticated, timid, needy, and weak, but most often, we refer to them as doormats.

ive found that the only people who label submissives doormats or try to degrade them tend to be either the egotistical wannabees who havnt the first idea of D/s or ''vanillas'' who cant grasp the concept and can only see it as a throw back to the 50's society ie head of the household/nurturing wife type marriages.

Further evidence of this can be seen in the number of dominant males who feel it necessary to proclaim that they only seek those who have something besides themselves to bring to the table. Apparently, the gift of submission isn't held in as high esteem as lifestylers would have one believe.

do you mean something else as in property,income etc? or other talents persdonality traits and such?
sorry if ive misunderstood you, but is there anything wrong with a Dominant wanting a partner who has more to offer other than just doing the laundry,cooking,cleaning and being available sexualy as and when? i think almost anyone wants a partner who can stimulate them on an intellectual level,have fun and all the other ''normal'' every day couple things..i know i would and most Dominants ive ever come across feel the same.
and i think many submissives like to make it clear that they are not doormats simply because of all the wannabee idiot so called Dom/mes out there..we all get sick of being told to ''kneel bitch''..''know your role'' etc by total strangers on IM and the like!

The question burning in my mind is this. With so few masters actually willing to be entirely responsible for another human being, where does that leave the truely submissive? Where can they (we?) find a safe haven and acceptance, if not here in the lifestyle? With everyone encouraging others to just be themselves, why does it always feel like they're (we're?) not included?

encouraging others to be themselves is a positive thing,whether that be encouraging them to be their usual independant type or encouraging them to be their usual dependant selves, i guess it works both ways and everyone should be included in that whatever type of submissive they are..im curious what does define the ''truly submissive''?
and most people,im not saying all find that in reality and the society we live in it's impossible to be totally taken care of or totally take care and control of because life generally throws too many obstacles in the way for that.
like anything there are different degrees of submission and as long as people find what works for themselves and their partners then it shouldnt really matter what others say or think, it's been reiterated over and over again and i believe it's true their is no true type of D/s r/ship.no bdsm bible that tells us what we MUST do or be if we want to call ourselves Dominant or submissive and maybe it's other peoples insecurities and worries that give them the need to determine their is?
and i certainly dont need acceptance from anyone in the way i choose to live any of my r/ships, people can take me or leave me; if they choose not to ''include'' me then i dont give a damn..why waste my time on them? i want people to accept me for who and what i am not on the basis of what type of r/ship i have or how submissive or non-submissive i am.

we all have our own beliefs,ways of doing things, our own ways of making our r/ships what we want them to be and its my feeling that we should all be respected for that.

im rambling sorry just throwing in my 2 cents worth

[Wolfen]

a true Master will always honor, cherish, and protect His submissive ... He must realize that her submission to Him is a precious gift and must be protected at all costs...

[babygirl2320]

Paradoxically, what we all have in common is that we are each unique! Therefore, we deserve to be treated as unique.

Too often 'cookie cutter' protocols are used to treat submissive/slaves. This is OK in the training and consideration phase but once a slave the Master should know enough about his/her slave to know what is the slave needs and what limits need to be pushed. Yet, the slave doesn't know either; so there is exploration and pushing of limits is the rule. This is where safe words play a role--at least in the early stages.

Open communication and honest feedback is keep to maintaining any relationship...including a D/s and M/s ones. You are a doormat if that is what you want/need. Ironically, a Master not treating like a doormat when it is what you want/need is abuse.

So, the answer to your post is complicated by the uniqueness of the Master/Dom and the slave/sub. Perfect matching is impossible but the continuous effort is to match control with needs.

you are right Sir Soaul i need to be dominated to the point to i still have say wen it comes to my house and kids. but at the same time i also need to be owned when need/want be and not when have to be.

[bip0lar]

The question burning in my mind is this. With so few masters actually willing to be entirely responsible for another human being, where does that leave the truely submissive? Where can they (we?) find a safe haven and acceptance, if not here in the lifestyle? With everyone encouraging others to just be themselves, why does it always feel like they're (we're?) not included?

The time i audibly gasped was with the word 'truly' submissive. I never, for one second, would claim that a woman who is assertive and dominating in her everyday life is not 'truly' submissive when it comes to her lover, master, dominant, partner. For one thing, it's not fair.
As for having a safe haven and acceptance, that first comes from within. I'll spare us all the psychological mumbo jumbo, I'll just get straight to the point and say that if one is comfortable with who he or she is, they don't need a safe haven per se--they need a place for discussion, debate, mental stimulation and information.
As for more dependant submissives--if i could put it in that way without offending anybody--nobody is excluding them or discouraging them from expressing their wants and needs. Well, at least, I'm not. The times I would stress out that i am not a 'doormat' is to keep wannabe dominants at bay, not willing to spend time and energy with them. Even the most dependant submissive [again, without wanting to offend anybody] has the sense to keep away from them and make her choices according to what her desires are.
There's no norms in this case, it's pretty much whatever rocks your boat. As long as each person makes sure that they're safe and are enjoying themselves, then it's all fine by me. The only thing i would stress out, however, is that if i saw a more dependant submissive in a relationship, i would make sure that she stays in it out of choice and happiness and not out of fear. There's a thin line between submission and D/s relationships and outright abuse. That's my biggest fear, and perhaps a reason to stress out that one is not a 'doormat'.

[denuseri]

I have nothing against erotic humiliation. In fact, it's one of my major turn-ons. I'll happily answer to just about anything my lover chooses to call me. What I do have a problem with in this lifestyle is the almost constant verbal degradation of those perceived to be at the extreme end of the spectrum in regards to submission. We call them all manner of things, including unsophisticated, timid, needy, and weak, but most often, we refer to them as doormats.

Society lauds the accomplishments of the strong, independent, self-sufficient go-getters while condemning those who are self-effacing and meek. Feminists have done much to alleviate the notion that women are somehow inferior to men in intellect and ability as was common conjecture until the mid 1900s. However, somewhere along the way, those who didn't live up to the Wonder Woman image of modern times became scapegoats and targets of derision.

Just observe how many submissive women feel it necessary to state that they aren't weak and don't need a dominant male to make their lives complete. Obviously, there is still a stigma attached to being submissive, even amongst those in the lifestyle. Further evidence of this can be seen in the number of dominant males who feel it necessary to proclaim that they only seek those who have something besides themselves to bring to the table. Apparently, the gift of submission isn't held in as high esteem as lifestylers would have one believe.

It seems to me, from my observations, that these dominant males seeking strong females don't want to be needed. They want her to take care of herself as well as him. She can be a CEO in the real world, but she's to be nothing more than a fetch-and-carry when she gets home. WTF?!? On the other hand, there are plenty of submissive females who love to reiterate again and again that they submit by choice and not by need. Since when did need become a dirty word? You can talk about taking a break from reality when you get home all you want, but it still leaves the question as to what to do about those for which this isn't a game to be played in the bedroom but a real life need to be dominated and controlled in order to be a happy and functioning member of society.

Why, especially here, should people who are deeply submissive be made to feel that they are subhuman and something to be avoided at all costs. Why aren't they, instead, praised and emulated? Why are those who are willing to do anything to please their master regarded as unhealthy and undesirable?

Tom of Sweden loves his wife/slave whom he considers a doormat. There's another married M/s couple on another BDSM site whose posts detail the fact that she is loved and cherished above all else, even though she's the type that unless you take her by the hand and lead her out will stand in the subway all day letting others go first. With all the soul-searching I've done over the last 2 years or so, I've come to realize, or maybe knew all along but was afraid to admit even to myself, that I would be happiest if I could just be myself, a stereotypical weak woman, enslaved by and dependent upon her master, instead of trying to convince myself and everyone else that I'm exactly the opposite.

The question burning in my mind is this. With so few masters actually willing to be entirely responsible for another human being, where does that leave the truely submissive? Where can they (we?) find a safe haven and acceptance, if not here in the lifestyle? With everyone encouraging others to just be themselves, why does it always feel like they're (we're?) not included?

AMEN MY SISTER!!!!!!

It is a long steep and hard road to seeing these things, at least it was for me. Many times i rejected myself, struggled with the two" me"s the one that thinks it has to be an "porper independent woman" and the one that craves to submit on my knees in front of man,.it took a lot to finally be cool with who and what i am to exist in this world of doublestandards.

Most of my life I couldnt see past all the BS enforced upon me by the modern "feminist" dogma shoved repeatably down my throat every day, ironically alongside all the sterotyping done with advertising and movies that promote my subjectification while expecting me to be a feme fatal and kick some ass!

, I mean really what did they want me to be? A virgin or a slut? Wonderwoman or Lious Lane? Knight or Damsel in distress? oh wait wrong analogy that last one. Guess if I go back far enough in history the double standards kind of go to the wayside. Hence why i like history so much. Of course the feminist would tell me i have it all wrong they just want me to be myself, all the while spouting emasculating rehtoric around me to make me think its not ok to submit to a man. Please RME

Your right of course boo, i have seen it even here, where some (especially other submissives) debase the girls that want to submit so bad, that in thier naivity or need they run into cyber sex and debase themselves just to get that "fix" for dominance if even for a fleeting moment with anyone willing to give it to them (cuase who wants a return visit from a doormat right? something must be wrong with them) SMH.

I may have even seemed guilty of it myself. I sure know for a fact when I first came to the site I was labeled as a cyber slut, mostly by my own sisters. (Even if 90% of my time in pvt chats wasnt even remotely sexual) Such peer pressure has its effects too I even "reverted in my submission here at home some becuase of it, fortunately I have a wonderful man that is strong and wouldnt let me go too far and jerks my lesh when it needs jerking, i am so very lucky in that regaurd.
.
It took a while to realize that a lot of it was becuase "they" the ones doing the stereotyping and looking down, calling me and others like me a slut, or worse a doormat at times, one even called me "collared meat"

They were in fact only doing so becuase they really just didnt see the real picture when it comes to M/s or D/s whatever you want to call it and still had the wool over thier eyes as i once did, and couldnt see the forest for the trees.

Instead of branding our sisters we should be reaching out more to actually help each other, just like I see this post of yours doing FRH.

For that I appluad you boo
thanku for this enlightening post
hugs and kissess
your sisa
denuseri

[Maitresse_Emeraude]

You express very valid points, and, for me at least, I would love to have one of those deep submissives home with me, but it is quite a strange living arrangement I have... and, i personally don't see those whom have full need of control as sick or unhealthy

[caligirl{Rob}]

Hmmmm haven't read through responses, but own personal opinion is a doormat has little or no value and is easily tossed away or replaced by another, I find it hard to see that even the most submissive of people (as we are of both sexes) who have the best of all of themselves to give or serve at the deepest level would be so labeled...however if the definition of a submissive at the deepest level is to have no value, then perhaps to be labeled a doormat is not a sign or label of degradation but simply yet another label. At the same time I personally have never looked to maintaining of personal worth and value as a limit to service or submission....ie that for a submissive to feel they have value and worth means they will or not be on the "extreme" level of submission or considered "truely" *gag* submissive. Again we get into labeling what is true to the lifestyle...if "doormat" is given and accepted as a label within a relationship why would the opinion of any outsider matter? I see the distinction not in what we label ourselves or others, but in how we feel about ourselves within. Why would being labeled a doormat be a bad thing to someone who wishes to be treated as one? If that is having your needs/wants/desires fulfilled then it is giving you worth. For me probably the very same argument as why so many are seen as not being "truly" *gag again* lol submissive by someone else's definition...To me it is the difference between the person who knows what they want and what they NEED and the person who accepts something because they have no self-worth.

[Twicelooked]

As a dominant male, I want to say how much I enjoyed reading the thoughts and opinions of all the subs that have contributed to this topic. It's always a pleasure to read an open and honest look into an individual you admire, and there is nothing I love or admire more than a submissive soul. Much of your frustration seems to be due to dominant males and somewhat close minded members of the community(society?) I think I have a perspective that may explain a small portion of this. Now if I may take a crack at responding....

There's another married M/s couple on another BDSM site whose posts detail the fact that she is loved and cherished above all else, even though she's the type that unless you take her by the hand and lead her out will stand in the subway all day letting others go first.

I believe the bias or judgment towards couples like this, is mainly a factor of projection. Specifically projection of fear. As a dom if I had a slave like this, how would I know she's safe when I'm not around? I must admit I doubt I could sleep if I knew somebody I cared about might now care for herself. If a restaurant under cooked her food, would she take it back or go hungry? Now this couple has been around for awhile, so I'm certain she has the sense necessary to eventually enter a subway, but people who see a high level of vulnerability will always have something to say about it. Be it, constructive or otherwise.

Just observe how many submissive women feel it necessary to state that they aren't weak and don't need a dominant male to make their lives complete. Obviously, there is still a stigma attached to being submissive, even amongst those in the lifestyle. Further evidence of this can be seen in the number of dominant males who feel it necessary to proclaim that they only seek those who have something besides themselves to bring to the table. Apparently, the gift of submission isn't held in as high esteem as lifestylers would have one believe.

Not to be rude, but some submissive women aren’t weak and will often take short breaks from the lifestyle, it's obvious they don't "need" they "enjoy" submitting. They may find it necessary to state this fact for a number of reasons, maybe they’re worried that a dominate male specifically looking for a weak women will damage or abuse them in some way. The “dominate”
males you speak of are, according to your own words, simply a number and they have a right to desire most anything they like. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it, but if somebody chooses to give it to them, then who are we to say anything against them? I will only accept a million dollars if it’s in a blue bag. Now it seems silly to compare submission to a million dollars, submission is worth far more, but you can’t make a moral argument that I MUST accept a million dollars in a wheel barrel, it’s obviously my loss(or the “dominate males” in question). Also I have a hard time picturing any submissive who doesn’t have something to bring to the table, perhaps you could clarify that point.

The question burning in my mind is this. With so few masters actually willing to be entirely responsible for another human being, where does that leave the truely submissive? Where can they (we?) find a safe haven and acceptance, if not here in the lifestyle? With everyone encouraging others to just be themselves, why does it always feel like they're (we're?) not included?

This is the most quoted section of your post, and I didn’t want to be left out. I’m, again, not entirely sure what you mean when you say “entirely responsible for another human being” as this is in a middle class bdsm couple, completely impossible. I say, middle class, because that’s what most of us are. We have to work, sleep, meet our vanilla friends, care for our family and run errands. How can I be responsible for a submissive female while she’s at work? This responsibility sounds more like a pet(mmm kinky) than a submissive, however with a dog you put it in the back yard with a weeks’ worth of food and everything is fine. I wouldn’t kennel a human being, no matter how submissive. If a couple can survive this level of dependence I applaud and would love to meet them. I need somebody that can get on and off a subway if I’m out of town. I hope you take the time to respond to some/all of the responses to your topic. There is much more to be said here and I’d love to read it.

[GearJammer]

First, there is a fair amount of good information here, and I'll cite Polaris, both for the solid info, AND for knowing herself so well. I find that to be unusual. Many people I encounter think they know themselves, but they do not, in fact. I suspect that Polaris most thoroughly does.

The following quote, however, grabbed my attention because of the near global application it has in this topic.

When I refer to someone as a "doormat," I am referring to someone that does not strive to embrace their submission, but defers to it becuase they just don't feel worthy to be anything else. To me, that is an insult to submission and many submissives. Submission is a level of service and personality, not the default reaction to low self-esteem.

Yes, Amber, the "why" IS ALWAYS more important, more telling, more influential, than the "what." I believe that if we were able to dig out the underlying "why" for all the feelings and opinions that are represented by the above posts, we would then actually be able to grasp how to change ourselves positively in this area of life, or whether or not change is warranted, far better than any of us can as it stands.

[GearJammer]

How can I be responsible for a submissive female while she’s at work? This responsibility sounds more like a pet(mmm kinky) than a submissive, however with a dog you put it in the back yard with a weeks’ worth of food and everything is fine. I wouldn’t kennel a human being, no matter how submissive. If a couple can survive this level of dependence I applaud and would love to meet them. I need somebody that can get on and off a subway if I’m out of town.

Responding to this separately because I quoted Amber then did some other things, and in the meantime, Twicelooked posted this.

While some will see the following line as thin and difficult to see, I would argue that it is not. If my pet (only a name, she is my sub, not slave nor pet in fact) does what I tell her, as I have trained her (or as I have retained and utilized previous experience) when I am absent from her, is she outside my "responsibility?" If I provide her with the direction necessary to engage and internalize the principles I wish her to live by, is she out of my control when I am absent?

I suggest that Twicelooked's perspective here is primarily physical, whereas many, including me, see the essence of submission and domination as primarily mental.

[Twicelooked]

I agree with gearjammer on the distinction between physical, which I addressed, and the emotional which I did not address. I was merely responding to Flaming's post which had a sub unable to board a subway. Mayhaps I took this too literally, but the example I quoted was an equally physical perspective.

[Flaming_Redhead]

Just my thought but I had always perceived a doormat to be someone who accepts that which she doesn’t really want…not as in punishment for an indiscretion but in life in general, a person who is not willing to speak up or act when things aren’t right for her.

Dictionary.com has several slang definitions for doomat which include a person who is the habitual object of abuse or humiliation by another, one who submits meekly to domination or mistreatment by others, and a person who is physically weak and ineffectual. I have fit all of these descriptions at some point in my life and sometimes still do. It can be very difficult to go against one's innate nature, and just because one speaks up doesn't mean one will be heard or even taken seriously. I have learned the hard way that "sometimes being a bitch is all a woman has to hold onto" to quote one of my favorite movies, "Dolores Claiborne."

Again, just my thought….isn’t making the choice to fulfill a need still a choice?

There are always choices. Some people are better at making good choices than others. One can only try to do what they feel is best at any given time, but it doesn't necessarily always turn out the way we'd imagined.

I personally, have never gotten the impression that anyone here feels this way.

In the first paragraph, I used terms that I'd read in this very forum, two of them from the thread on verbal humiliation. The prejudice is insidious and unlikely to offend the majority. The minority it does offend are unllikely to speak up, but I'm doing it now.

For me happy is the key word here…many people go through life simply existing, not truly happy (been there done that) it takes a strong person imo to know what makes them truly happy and to do whatever it takes to achieve this. I also think my idea of a doormat is very unlikely to find this happiness…probably about as likely as winning the lotto.

Many people do need to get off their asses. However, I think it takes a strong person not to give in to the peer pressure to be something she isn't. One can run themselves ragged trying to do whatever it takes to find happiness, especially when one is told to be more outgoing or to do this or that, instead of just being themselves and being happy.

[Flaming_Redhead]

Okay this is my first post and now I'm just gonna throw it out there...

Welcome to the Library!

Your post sets alot of thoughts going for me on the choice of fulfilling needs, and if what you feel the need to do/want to do is always what is best for you?, and what a truly submissive person, having build her life completely around her master, does the day he leaves her or dies before her?

The scary thing is that one can never really know if the decision made was the right one until after the fact, but neither can one sit idly by and do nothing without some risk. We live and learn, and we do the best we can. Living in fear will paralyze you or drive you to do desperate acts. I should know. You sound a lot like me, btw.

[cadence]

I have nothing against erotic humiliation. In fact, it's one of my major turn-ons. I'll happily answer to just about anything my lover chooses to call me. What I do have a problem with in this lifestyle is the almost constant verbal degradation of those perceived to be at the extreme end of the spectrum in regards to submission. We call them all manner of things, including unsophisticated, timid, needy, and weak, but most often, we refer to them as doormats.

Where can they (we?) find a safe haven and acceptance, if not here in the lifestyle? With everyone encouraging others to just be themselves, why does it always feel like they're (we're?) not included?

In the first paragraph, I used terms that I'd read in this very forum, two of them from the thread on verbal humiliation. The prejudice is insidious and unlikely to offend the majority. The minority it does offend are unllikely to speak up, but I'm doing it now.

I haven't read all of the responses here, but what I gather from your post and the statements above, you are asking about the submissives who choose/need to live a life in such a way that most others cannot really understand or fathom.

From what I understand you are trying to convey that when a submissive discusses something that the majority are not comfortable with, the submissive begins to feel left out, and partly ostracized for declaring such a fact.

A submissive who states that being able to not have an orgasm for a week and remembering to thank thier Master for allowing them to control it, is loudly applauded for such a difficult feat.

A submissive who states that being able to be verbally abused, slapped, spit on and have thier head shaved while thanking thier Master is not so loudly applauded. These actions are questioned and thusly the submissive feels ashamed for declaring a need that is very strong for them.


Did I understand that correctly? If I didn't sorry. It was what I interpreted the post to be.

To be honest, I don't have the answers, it's frustrating at best to enjoy and want to live in a way that others really don't understand.
It's not that I believe others to be judgmental, it's just that when you start to move to the far end of the submissive spectrum, you have to expect that not everyone will understand it. I would at times rather not voice my wants, needs or choices, but in the end, why should I keep quiet about what I want and enjoy.

[caligirl{Rob}]

Dictionary.com has several slang definitions for doomat which include a person who is the habitual object of abuse or humiliation by another, one who submits meekly to domination or mistreatment by others, and a person who is physically weak and ineffectual. I have fit all of these descriptions at some point in my life and sometimes still do. It can be very difficult to go against one's innate nature, and just because one speaks up doesn't mean one will be heard or even taken seriously. I have learned the hard way that "sometimes being a bitch is all a woman has to hold onto" to quote one of my favorite movies, "Dolores Claiborne."





In the first paragraph, I used terms that I'd read in this very forum, two of them from the thread on verbal humiliation. The prejudice is insidious and unlikely to offend the majority. The minority it does offend are unllikely to speak up, but I'm doing it now.



Many people do need to get off their asses. However, I think it takes a strong person not to give in to the peer pressure to be something she isn't. One can run themselves ragged trying to do whatever it takes to find happiness, especially when one is told to be more outgoing or to do this or that, instead of just being themselves and being happy.

This is an honest inquiry as to the dilemma with the term....if indeed someone feels their "true" *gag...cuz i hate that term* lol submissiveness is shown in being weak, completely reliant upon a Master/Mistress, being there solely to serve, then why should the term doormat be looked upon as a slight? Again, as others have stated I think the honest concern shown by most in the "lifestyle" is when someone, anyone is making concessions not by choice but out of such a lack of inner strength as to not know what they want or need. To be a doormat because it is what you need and what your partner desires is VERY different from being a "doormat" because you believe you derserve nothing more and have no worth, it fulfils no need, and leaves them feeling empty. I think very few who are "truly" in the lifestyle (rolls eyes at the horrid need to label) look down upon any that have found that true place where they find fulfillment in their role.

Again I hope that this is seen as honestly meant...as an honest inquiry

[AdrianaAurora]

A very interesting topic and very brave of you for opening it up Flaming_Redhead, even if you didn't know this is where it was going to end up (like its often the case with our threads, lol).

Unlike most, I was very, very fortunate that I didn't have to go and search for the Master, we merely found each other (when I was still very young) and decided that D/s is the right fit for U/us. For many years we lived in a (sometimes hellish, sometimes heavenly) cocoon and when we were forced/ready to explore further, one of the consequences was me finding my way to the Library. I was amazed by how wonderful this place is and how welcoming, selfless and intelligent everyone was. But there was one underlying strain that made me so worked up with worry, He almost forbid me from continuing here. I am so glad He didn't, because this place has been very good for us, for opening topics for discussions, for awakening my awareness concerning things He wouldn't otherwise bring up.

Before we met He had already clocked up decades in this Lifestyle, acquired many skills, possess superior knowledge as to the under workings of human minds and there is very little He hasn't experienced for Himself - to say that He is more experianced than myself would be a gross understatement, thus I have early on learned to work through and grasp things that are not my thing. So when I came here, while not unexpected, I was a bit shocked even as I was amazed and curious about those who choose to surrender themselves completely. When I say "doormat" I usually say it in vanilla (dictionary) context, when it comes to bdsm - as long as the relationship is consensual, safe and loving (as in the example of Tom and his wife) - to me "doormat" is just another term of endearment, not unlike "slut". I am happy for them, I don't think of his wife as doormat, its simply something that works for them.

Even if I don't get something, I understand that it works for others, and am respectful of that and them. I cant explain nuances of my relationship with my husband to myself, let alone vocalize them to others - so it never occurred to me/I never felt the need to judge others or to go all evangelical about Our way, must be that pesky liberal spirit of mine, lol.

So what got me fretting (about myself) in the begging, though it was always just vaguely implied - is that if I keep a part of myself independent, if I don't end every sentence with Master, if I refuse to dress certain way, if I don't like to be called names, if I don't agree with everything He says, if I don't exhibit blind obedience ...that I am not true submissive (something, even if unintentionally, you implied here too). I knew I was submissive, but I got all worked up about not being "submissive enough", about not being "true submissive" - it makes me laugh these days, but at the time it wasn't a laughing matter. Luckily He is very good at "jerking my chain" and making sure I don't hang myself with it, while allowing me the freedom to be myself. I have no idea what "true submissive" is, if you do - please share it, but it still doesn't mean that it has to work for me, or that if it doesn't work for me, I am not true submissive.

Often its just semantics and labels - we lived 24/7 TPE lifestyle long before I got it that that is what we were doing; and short of making my Hubby wonder for a sec or two if His beautiful, intelligent wife was somehow replaced by a dimwitted clone, and making me worry about it for a few days - it changed absolutely nothing.

We may be doing the exact same thing submission wise, but just because I don't like labels does that make me less "true"; does me not referring to Him as my Owner, and disagreeing with that term, makes His possession any less and complete than of those who go around all day referring to themselves as slaves and "yes, siring" to just about everyone who says that they are dominant. I don't judge those who need or like that, because like denuseri said, there is always more than meets the eyes. But so is with those like myself - just because I am not blatantly submissive, or don't want or need to be taken care of, doesn't mean I am not "true".

I only submit to the One dominant enough to deal with myself, and He knows how to do that, if everyone else wants to label me "Domme bitch posing as sub" thats fine. He prefers me like that, nothing gives Him a bigger rush than the fact that He is the only one who commands submission from the one who submits to no one. Its not a play for Him, being like this isn't about enacting fantasies for us (not that those aren't nice, ), its the fact of the matter. It matters not by which name I refer to Him, because the meaning is always the same (you should hear the tone with which I say His name).

I admit, it took me a long time to admit that I needed Him, but that is a matter of trust and doesn't come overnight. The reason I don't like word "doormat" is because it denotes lack of worth and easiness with which one can be replaced. It also, to me, sounds cold and impersonal. After all, aren't we constantly reminded how little good Doms there are and how many subs are competing for their attention.

It is my neediness for Him that made me weary about admitting it to Him - to expose oneself, to give yourself like that, without assurance that that is what the other side wants, is to set up yourself for hurt, or even worse, abuse. Only when it became clear that I alone, and my submission, are of special importance to Him - I stopped holding back. Its not that I couldn't survive without Him, I could and very well at that, but it wouldn't be much of a living; and I didn't want Him to think I am a leach.

When at the end of the day He sits on the couch and I, unconsciously, gravitate to my place at His feet and He puts my head on His knees - that is the only thing I know to be "true".

[damyanti]

Perhaps if we replaced the word true with honest submissive...