Iraqis still ask if U.S. invasion was worth it

[Thorne]

Let's chalk that up to the Nazis and not the Germans per se.

The Wehrmacht loyaly carried out policy, even those they clearly (from contemporary writings and memoirs) didn't agree with...

Now if you meant the SS (commanders and troops...) they were malignant zealots imo.

Yes, you're absolutely correct. My apologies to the German people. It was the Nazi leadership which imposed the brutal occupations. And in Eastern Europe, at least, it was primarily SS and Gestapo units which enforced them.

But turning this back to the current situation, as a soldier how do you keep from implementing the leadership's policies if you believe they are faulty? We are seeing military leaders either voluntarily or forcefully resigning over the situation in Iraq. How does the common soldier, who certainly knows more about it than some general sitting in Washington, pull himself out of it? The Wehrmacht couldn't do it in WW2. Our soldiers can't do it now.

[mkemse]

Yes, you're absolutely correct. My apologies to the German people. It was the Nazi leadership which imposed the brutal occupations. And in Eastern Europe, at least, it was primarily SS and Gestapo units which enforced them.

But turning this back to the current situation, as a soldier how do you keep from implementing the leadership's policies if you believe they are faulty? We are seeing military leaders either voluntarily or forcefully resigning over the situation in Iraq. How does the common soldier, who certainly knows more about it than some general sitting in Washington, pull himself out of it? The Wehrmacht couldn't do it in WW2. Our soldiers can't do it now.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am not sure Soldiers have the same options s their Comaders when vocing their opinoin, even if they strongly do not support the WAr, they may feel they need to look andact like they do to avoid a "Dishonorable Discarge" perhaps
Comanders seem to have more flexiblitiy and remarks they make Soldiers do not seem to have that right, or atleast not til they return and know they wil see no further action, but i could be very wrongon this, i would find it very. very difficult to belivethat 100% of all those Figihting aupport the wart, butthey may have limited option and may have even ben advised by the Comanders "If youdo not support the War, kindly keep those feelings private and to yourself" to avoid decsion in the ranks

[Thorne]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am not sure Soldiers have the same options s their Comaders when vocing their opinoin, even if they strongly do not support the WAr, they may feel they need to look andact like they do to avoid a "Dishonorable Discarge" perhaps
Comanders seem to have more flexiblitiy and remarks they make Soldiers do not seem to have that right, or atleast not til they return and know they wil see no further action, but i could be very wrongon this, i would find it very. very difficult to belivethat 100% of all those Figihting aupport the wart, butthey may have limited option and may have even ben advised by the Comanders "If youdo not support the War, kindly keep those feelings private and to yourself" to avoid decsion in the ranks

Yeah, that's my point. The officers, especially general officers, can always resign, if they're not fired. The soldiers who have to do the work, though, are stuck! Agree or disagree, they are there for the duration.

I don't know what you can do about this, though. After all, you can't have a war if the only one's fighting are those who think it's necessary, can you?

Wouldn't that be an interesting sight? GW and Osama facing off together? Rhetoric at 30 paces!

[Thorne]

I've never been in the military, but I've spoken with some who have (Viet Nam) and read accounts by others, from many different wars. Once you come right down to it, very few soldiers are fighting for some nebulous "cause" dreamed up by politicians and generals who are safe behind the lines. They overwhelmingly state that they are fighting for their buddies, the guys next to them in the foxhole, or the tank, or the plane. There sole motivation, besides saving their own lives, is saving the lives of those fighting with them.

Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce is a story I remembered about an occurrence in WW1. Supposedly, this shocked and dismayed the politicians and higher officers who feared it could demoralize troops and bring an early end to hostilities! To me, it points out the problems of the common soldier, forced to fight for a cause which he may or may not believe in, which may or may not make for a better life for him and his family, against other men who feel exactly the same way. And the ones who benefit the most are the one's least likely to be harmed.

[wmrs2]

Yes, you're absolutely correct. My apologies to the German people. It was the Nazi leadership which imposed the brutal occupations. And in Eastern Europe, at least, it was primarily SS and Gestapo units which enforced them.

But turning this back to the current situation, as a soldier how do you keep from implementing the leadership's policies if you believe they are faulty? We are seeing military leaders either voluntarily or forcefully resigning over the situation in Iraq. How does the common soldier, who certainly knows more about it than some general sitting in Washington, pull himself out of it? The Wehrmacht couldn't do it in WW2. Our soldiers can't do it now.

Hitler was a master at national psychology. He had the whole German nation worked up into a frenzy perpetuated by total fear of ridicule and punishment for rejecting any part of his party plan. Any military officer who disagreed with the party line could not resign in protest but he could be shot. Can you imagine Hitler saying to his citizens that the army would be a volunteer army and only those who felt patriotic enough had to join? That is one reason GW does not have to worry about disloyalty among the troops now. The troops are in Iraq because they want to implement the national policy and that is why so many sign up for a second and third term.

Today it is not the military that believes the policies of war are faulty but rather many of the political leaders and citizens that remained at home. There can be no doubt that many politicians withhold support for the war without being shot or thrown into prison. Can you imagine a German politician saying to Hitler that his national policy was unpatriotic? Yet, Americans are allowed to stand up to the President during war time and call him a liar, a traitor, as thief, and a cheap thug. Many use the war as an effort to overthrow the President and make political hay out of the President's abuse. Try that with Hitler.

One thing we learn from comparing the situation today to the German society of WWII is the fact America really won WWII. All Americans be proud that President Bush allows the freedoms that our soldiers fought and died for in WWII. Although I am opening myself up for criticism, sarcasm. and personal attack, I am honored to stand up for a man that will go down in history as a great President, a man who stood by his principles and left office while leaving our country with a history.

God bless America and thank God for our great leaders.

[mkemse]

Hitler was a master at national psychology. He had the whole German nation worked up into a frenzy perpetuated by total fear of ridicule and punishment for rejecting any part of his party plan. Any military officer who disagreed with the party line could not resign in protest but he could be shot. Can you imagine Hitler saying to his citizens that the army would be a volunteer army and only those who felt patriotic enough had to join? That is one reason GW does not have to worry about disloyalty among the troops now. The troops are in Iraq because they want to implement the national policy and that is why so many sign up for a second and third term.

Today it is not the military that believes the policies of war are faulty but rather many of the political leaders and citizens that remained at home. There can be no doubt that many politicians withhold support for the war without being shot or thrown into prison. Can you imagine a German politician saying to Hitler that his national policy was unpatriotic? Yet, Americans are allowed to stand up to the President during war time and call him a liar, a traitor, as thief, and a cheap thug. Many use the war as an effort to overthrow the President and make political hay out of the President's abuse. Try that with Hitler.

One thing we learn from comparing the situation today to the German society of WWII is the fact America really won WWII. All Americans be proud that President Bush allows the freedoms that our soldiers fought and died for in WWII. Although I am opening myself up for criticism, sarcasm. and personal attack, I am honored to stand up for a man that will go down in history as a great President, a man who stood by his principles and left office while leaving our country with a history.

God bless America and thank God for our great leaders.

Bush is NOT the only President to have our Freedoms fought for
It was done during the Revolutionary War, as well as others Wars, Korean,
Viet Nam to name just a few, ect But please don't give credit only to George Bush, give it to ALL our Presedients, be they Repubilcan or Democrat And All are Freedoms that ALL our Men and Women have so galanty Fought To defended over all the years
Credit goes to all of all our Presdents over the years no just George Bush

[Thorne]

One thing we learn from comparing the situation today to the German society of WWII is the fact America really won WWII. All Americans be proud that President Bush allows the freedoms that our soldiers fought and died for in WWII. Although I am opening myself up for criticism, sarcasm. and personal attack, I am honored to stand up for a man that will go down in history as a great President, a man who stood by his principles and left office while leaving our country with a history.

I was not in any way trying to compare our President with Hitler. There can be no comparison. If you took it that way I'm sorry. I was merely pointing out the problems with ANY military force when faced with serious political infighting at home.

And I would never use sarcasm or a personal attack just because of your political views. Criticism, perhaps. I just cannot agree with your opinion of the current administration. But I will agree that you have a right to that opinion, just as those who disagree with you have a right to their's.

[wmrs2]

I was not in any way trying to compare our President with Hitler. There can be no comparison. If you took it that way I'm sorry. I was merely pointing out the problems with ANY military force when faced with serious political infighting at home.

And I would never use sarcasm or a personal attack just because of your political views. Criticism, perhaps. I just cannot agree with your opinion of the current administration. But I will agree that you have a right to that opinion, just as those who disagree with you have a right to their's.

I appreciate your reply. I know you were not comparing Hitler to our President. The comparison was mine which I think could be made to all our Presidents. Even Presidents and citizens I disagree with are full and complete Americans participating in the freedoms of debate and speech.
God bless . . . .