Lest we forget

[TomOfSweden]

You have to remember, you're talking about a region which has been almost constant turmoil since the first ape started walking around on two legs. People in the middle east have been killing one another for political, economic and religious reasons, or for no reason at all, without any help from the rest of the world. The only time they seem to stop and band together is when the rest of the world stick their noses in and try to calm things down.

As I see it, speaking as a US citizen, we have several options.
1) We can get together with the rest of the civilized world and isolate the middle east. Build a virtual wall around it and don't let anyone in or out. Just trade them small arms for oil and watch them kill themselves off.
2) Several years ago I recall reading about the US developing a neutron bomb, one which would destroy life without destroying infrastructure. So just sterilize the place and be done with it.
3) Help the Israelis take over the Temple Mount and rebuild their Temple. As I understand it, this will signal the end times and we won't have to worry about much of anything anymore.
4) Use every political means at our disposal and instigate yet another Arab/Israeli war, but this time keep the UN from stopping Israel when they start winning.
5) My favorite: Crank up the space program so we can move the rational part of Earth's population (both of us) to a new solar system. Leave the Earth to the zealots.

You're forgetting that 300 years ago Europeans where doing exactly the same thing as the Arabs are doing now to each other, to other religions and to women. You are treating the Arabs, (and Persians) like they will always be like this. In the 13'th century the Arabs where the enlighetened people and the Europeans where the retards. 500 years of currupt Ottoman rule wiped out any head start they had.

...and you're just wrong in that they have always been like this. There's an evolution and we in the West started our journey towards democracy and enlightenment 300 years ago and the middle-east started in the 1950'ies. Just comparing their culture to ours as is just isn't fair. You've got to give them some time to catch up. 50 years is not a lot in these circumstances. It takes many more generations for these values to catch on, and I'm sure they will. They did here and there's no reason it couldn't over there. Don't forget that we take on many values from our parents and the changes in values between generations are very gradual.

...and don't judge them to harshly. We still aren't free from sin and have plenty of problems. Just the fact that women and men don't have equal oportunities or pay, or that we still have rampant racism. USA has increasing numbers turning to religion. How's that for belonging to an enlightened age? Who's up for throwing the first stone? We aren't at some final stage of enlightenment. We are just as the people in the middle-east right in the middle of evolving our culture to something new. Evolution is constant and ever changing.

I'm with you on the space plan. Too many religious freaks down here for my taste.

[TomOfSweden]

TomOfSweden,

The current reality is whether the United States is involved in a conflct there or NOT the Middle East and Iraw specificly will see no peace or stability well beyond my life time thier sectarian war will go on for years to come and nothing the United States does will quell this, plus we as a nation have no right to be involved in a sectarian war there, we as a nation have other issues to deal with,, like drug traffacking, homlessness gas prices ect, i would love the see the US put as much tim, effort, energy into solving the problems of our own homeland as we always seem to have policing the world
This does nt mean donothelp other nation, it means let's take care of our own first

Why hasn't USA the right to get involved in a sectarian war? The rest of the world thought it was ok to get involved in the Yugoslav civil war. Korea. Vietnam. A whole number of countries in Africa.

I'm of the complete oposite opinion. It's better for the rest of the world to stop civil wars with violence and force them, (who ever "them" may be) to sort it out through a democratic process. It worked in Yugoslavia so why wouldn't it in Iraq. And I'm sure USA would have been a lot better off without the vast amounts of casualties and structural damage of the American civil war. Civil wars are always a bigger disaster than ordinary wars because they tend to go on for much longer.

Their used to be a say "If you want and need your country rebuild get into a war with the United States, they will happily rebuild your country for you"

I'm going to go right ahead and assume this is your atempt at humour and that you don't actually believe this.

[mkemse]

The simple fact remains that BUSH used WMD as his reason(among others) for going into Iraq and he was told by Inspectors and everyone else that WMD's did not exist, yet he had to go in anyway
and the reality after our Mid TErm election is, and he has made this very clear to the Citizens of the United Staes, "I am the decison maker and me only" well Mr. Presiednt, we have system of checks and balances, congress has war powers, you do not alone, you need to be open and honest with the people of our country as to why we went in, how we will get out and you refuse to be honest with with Americans on this
You went in with NO plan and you still have NO plan, or if you do the American people have no see or heard it, even members of your own party are starting to distance themselves from you, and in our mid term elections many, many Repbulicans declined on your offers to campaingn for them, beucase they did not want that to effect the results, the American Pepole are tired you your faied Iraq policy and the Midterm elections we had last november speak this message very, very cleary, we want a change and now
We know what your goal is Iraq is, we do not know how you plan to achieve this goal, all we know is you want ti keeop sending troops in

[mkemse]

Why hasn't USA the right to get involved in a sectarian war

Becuase we have a history of getting invloved in conflicts we have no right to be involved in, the United Stae has to stop policing the world and take of it it's own people first, for Iraq, we had no plan goinging, we have no plan to leave

[mkemse]

I am disabled, i can not work, i recieve Social Security disablitiy, but my cost of living increase every years is about $20-$25, i can not afford decent food, but as a nation we can pour Billions into Iraq for a war, I would like to have a steak every now and then and not have to live on Ramon Noodles, or Micro Wave Dinners but the governent does not "allow me this luxury" because of of limited funds I have to live on, this is only part of what i mean by taking care of it;s own first, I have Meidcare D from the governemnt to pay for my medication, but the pharacutial compaies are now telling me i need to pay more out of my pocket for medication, if i could do this i would not need my medical insure, i can't ven adford maintencne medication for myself but we have money to bomb Iraw with, is there some wrong with this picture??

[TomOfSweden]

Why hasn't USA the right to get involved in a sectarian war

Becuase we have a history of getting invloved in conflicts we have no right to be involved in, the United Stae has to stop policing the world and take of it it's own people first, for Iraq, we had no plan goinging, we have no plan to leave

That's "no right" according to you. Aparently there are those who don't agree. Like most US voters for one. I don't suport every US atempt to police the world, but it's good that they do.

I would like to see a USA more focused on trying to police the world together with other democratic nations. I think the world does need policing. Now more than ever.

What post WW2 US history lacks is negotiating with other democratic nations about how the world should be run.

[TomOfSweden]

never mind

[mkemse]

In a civilized country as the United States is, Yes, I believe I should recieve more from my Government, Yes, i paid into the system for 45 years working.Yes, I am intitled to equal back of it back, when the United States cost of living increases yearly up to 5& and my income is only increased by the governemnt by 2.5% with me paying into it, YES iam intitled to more, ifi never worked, then no, i didnot pay into the system I do not deserve more back, Yes I paid into it as i said for 45 years I am intitled to at lease have a cost of living adjusted yearly to the United State cost of living, it do notbelievethis is an unfair request to make
You have ajob, you get paid US dolar equal say $5.50 an hour ALL your felow co workers in the same position make $7.50 an hour, same work, same qualification, yes there is something wrong
Our countries minimum wge has been at $5.50 an hour for almost 15 years but our govrnemnt gives the president and congressmen an 8% cost of livingi ncrease EVERY year, why are they intitled to 8% and myself only 2.5% when I pay in??

[TomOfSweden]

In a civilized country as the United States is, Yes, I believe I should recieve more from my Government, Yes, i paid into the system for 45 years working.Yes, I am intitled to equal back of it back, when the United States cost of living increases yearly up to 5& and my income is only increased by the governemnt by 2.5% with me paying into it, YES iam intitled to more, ifi never worked, then no, i didnot pay into the system I do not deserve more back, Yes I paid into it as i said for 45 years I am intitled to at lease have a cost of living adjusted yearly to the United State cost of living, it do notbelievethis is an unfair request to make
You have ajob, you get paid US dolar equal say $5.50 an hour ALL your felow co workers in the same position make $7.50 an hour, same work, same qualification, yes there is something wrong
Our countries minimum wge has been at $5.50 an hour for almost 15 years but our govrnemnt gives the president and congressmen an 8% cost of livingi ncrease EVERY year, why are they intitled to 8% and myself only 2.5% when I pay in??

I erased my post since I didn't think it added anything. Sorry about that. Fairnes is a discussion I'd rather not get myself into because the variables are so incredibly subjective and infinate.

[mkemse]

Fairnes is a discussion I'd rather not get myself into because the variables are so incredibly subjective and infinate.

fair enough and thnk you, lt's make everyone on the planet milllioniare and that would solve alot of issues LOL

[Rhabbi]

This is a sensitive subject, and I know people who were in these camps.

Not only were Jews there, but any group that the Nazi's did not want around, including people like some of the people in this forum, me for instance. My personal views would have caused me to end up in one of the Nazi camps, something to think about.

Nevertheless, I am turned on by some of the situations that existed in there, and I am willing to admit it. I have dad to come terms with much worse in my journey into who I am. So, I can understand and appreciate the role play aspects that are involved, but we have to remember two things.

1. That role play is not the real thing.
2. That the real thing should never be allowed

That said, the same thing is happening in different part s of the world. My personal faith tells me that this is an unavoidable and intricate part of human nature, yet if we do speak out against it we are condoning it

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Just something to think about and remeber when we lay back in our comfortable beds and think that it cannot happen here.

[mkemse]

Rhabbi,

thank you, but i also believe Jews were by far and away the greatest majority of victims and only Jews as far as I know were victimised by the "Night Of Broken Glass" , I heard never heard or read of any non jewish areas being attacked on that night, please correct me if i am wrong,and apologise for not knowthe German spelling of ther name of that night

[Thorne]

You're forgetting that 300 years ago Europeans where doing exactly the same thing as the Arabs are doing now to each other, to other religions and to women. You are treating the Arabs, (and Persians) like they will always be like this. In the 13'th century the Arabs where the enlighetened people and the Europeans where the retards. 500 years of currupt Ottoman rule wiped out any head start they had.

No, I'm not forgetting. True, during the dark ages in Europe the Arab nations were more advanced in sciences and mathematics. The difference is, back then you couldn't kill 2000 people by running a horse drawn coach into a building. Or spread radioctive dust over hundreds of square miles of urban areas with a few pounds of explosives.

...and you're just wrong in that they have always been like this. There's an evolution and we in the West started our journey towards democracy and enlightenment 300 years ago and the middle-east started in the 1950'ies. Just comparing their culture to ours as is just isn't fair. You've got to give them some time to catch up. 50 years is not a lot in these circumstances. It takes many more generations for these values to catch on, and I'm sure they will. They did here and there's no reason it couldn't over there. Don't forget that we take on many values from our parents and the changes in values between generations are very gradual.

First you said that they were more enlightened than the Europeans, now you say we have to give them time to catch up? In other words, they have Devolved.
Personally, I don't care which religion they practice, or who they can con into practicing with them. Everyone is entitled to their own personal beliefs. What I object to is their trying to force their beliefs on the rest of the world through violence and terrorism.(And yes, I know the Roman Catholic Church is just as guilty of this historically.) In my opinion, if your religion is so screwed up that you must force people to accept it, it isn't a religion.

...and don't judge them to harshly. We still aren't free from sin and have plenty of problems. Just the fact that women and men don't have equal oportunities or pay, or that we still have rampant racism. USA has increasing numbers turning to religion. How's that for belonging to an enlightened age? Who's up for throwing the first stone? We aren't at some final stage of enlightenment. We are just as the people in the middle-east right in the middle of evolving our culture to something new. Evolution is constant and ever changing.

It's my understanding that religion in the US is in decline. Except for the very vocal religious right wing fanatics, most people of faith are more interested in their personal form of worship than in organized religion. A quote from the remake of "Flight of the Phoenix" comes to mind. The Arab character says, "Faith brings people together, religion drives them apart."

I'm with you on the space plan. Too many religious freaks down here for my taste.

Anyone ready to book a flight to Alpha Centauri? Shouldn't take more than 10,000 years to get there!

[Rhabbi]

I think that you are right about the Jewish neighborhoods being the only one's victimized that night, though I could be wrong. Like you, I cannot recall the German name, but I am sure that someone here Can.

I was not trying to minimize the suffering that the Jews went through, it is just that so many people only know about the Jews. The Nazi regime also rounded up other undesireables, like sexual devients, gypsies, and anyone who would not cooperate with there pogroms.

[mkemse]

Kristallnacht - German for Night Of Broken Glass,

i am not trying for 1 seond to minimize what happeed to others, i know there were other the Nazi's killed, but not 3 million "others" the Jews literaly lost an entire generation of people and what is scarier then this is Hilter came within 45 days of conquering the whole world

[mkemse]

And amazingly enough I know alot of people who still contend what happened never did, they contend the file photos and films and all are defense department films made to look like it happened, 1 person i know even said "Sure many few few hundred, but there is no way in H***L 3 million

[Thorne]

Kristallnacht - German for Night Of Broken Glass,

i am not trying for 1 seond to minimize what happeed to others, i know there were other the Nazi's killed, but not 3 million "others" the Jews literaly lost an entire generation of people and what is scarier then this is Hilter came within 45 days of conquering the whole world

According to Wikipedia:
5 to 7 million Jews, based on Nazi documentation, with total murdered coming to 9 to 11 million, "though some estimates have been as high as 26 million."

I don't think this takes into account the millions of civilians killed on the Russian Front by the advancing German armies.

And if Hitler had allowed his generals to prosecute the war Russia would have been knocked out in 1941 with the fall of Moscow, although most scholars believe that Stalin would have kept his army fighting from the Urals. But with the bulk of Soviet industrial and farm lands in German hands it would have been a tough fight. The German army was halted by the Russian winter withing sight of the Kremlin! The month that they lost because of Hitler's poor decisions cost them the war.

[Ozme52]

... and what is scarier then this is Hilter came within 45 days of conquering the whole world

How do you figure that?

[Ozme52]

According to Wikipedia:
5 to 7 million Jews, based on Nazi documentation, with total murdered coming to 9 to 11 million, "though some estimates have been as high as 26 million."

I don't think this takes into account the millions of civilians killed on the Russian Front by the advancing German armies.

And if Hitler had allowed his generals to prosecute the war Russia would have been knocked out in 1941 with the fall of Moscow, although most scholars believe that Stalin would have kept his army fighting from the Urals. But with the bulk of Soviet industrial and farm lands in German hands it would have been a tough fight. The German army was halted by the Russian winter withing sight of the Kremlin! The month that they lost because of Hitler's poor decisions cost them the war.

Right you are... including and maybe especially the decision to lay seige to Stanlingrad... because of its name and "importance" in Hitler's mind... instead of bypassing it and proceeding into the Crimea where all the oil reserves were... the oil the Third Reich needed to continue their advances into Russia and elsewhere.

[TomOfSweden]

No, I'm not forgetting. True, during the dark ages in Europe the Arab nations were more advanced in sciences and mathematics. The difference is, back then you couldn't kill 2000 people by running a horse drawn coach into a building. Or spread radioctive dust over hundreds of square miles of urban areas with a few pounds of explosives.

That's fair, but you still have to give evolution time to work. I mean, you have to. There's no other way you or anybody else can do anything about it. We are part of the same planet and there's no way we can avoid each other. The globalisation is speeding up. There's loads of muslims in USA. One in ten Swedes where born in an other country or their parents where. We've got a huge mosque in central Stockholm. Arabs and the Arab culture is everywhere now.

First you said that they were more enlightened than the Europeans, now you say we have to give them time to catch up? In other words, they have Devolved.

Not devolved but froze. They thought they had the worlds most advanced and enlightened culture, (which was true at first). They where Europes and the regions only culture that allowed followers of other religions to stay and live, which for the time was extremly progressive. They had big churches and synagogues that where under the protection of the sultan. What went wrong is that the evolution of the culture stopped and Europe wizzed past them. The same thing that happened to the Roman empire where the "barbarians" ended up having a far superior culture.

If history teaches us anything it's that whenever people become chauvinist about their culture it stops evolving and in time becomes obsolete. Let's try to avoid that ok?

With superior culture I mean the most tollerant culture that allows for the maximum amount of diversity and still holding together. According to the US researcher Richard Florida, cultures like this have historically always been and are always the richest and most technologically advanced cultures in the world.

He floated the concept of gay-index as a way to measure this. Cities that are gay friendly, ie has the highest proportion of openly gay citizens has invariably the highest per capita income. Tollerance makes money. I agree with him 100%. In other words, a cultures superiority can be measured in money. I like things that can be measured.

Personally, I don't care which religion they practice, or who they can con into practicing with them. Everyone is entitled to their own personal beliefs. What I object to is their trying to force their beliefs on the rest of the world through violence and terrorism.(And yes, I know the Roman Catholic Church is just as guilty of this historically.) In my opinion, if your religion is so screwed up that you must force people to accept it, it isn't a religion.

I don't think Islamic terrorism is about trying to convert anybody. It has to do with what muslims consider is the "holy lands" and about attacking any un-believer that dares invade or colonialise it. That's at least what Osama said was his driving force and a good summary of what Islamic terrorisms main philosopher said, Qutb.

[himind]

Peace has made precious few headlines in the world,but it's the one thing most common people desire above anything else.If only these guys so intent on blowing themselves up along with the whole world would open their minds for a few seconds and talk to the people the presume to fight for...

[TomOfSweden]

Peace has made precious few headlines in the world,but it's the one thing most common people desire above anything else.If only these guys so intent on blowing themselves up along with the whole world would open their minds for a few seconds and talk to the people the presume to fight for...

To be fair. Most muslims aren't suicide bombers. Pretty far from all. And most of them don't suport it. The public outcry of Imams against Osama after 911 was massive and backed by every major Imam in the whole world. Except in Gaza. None of the other Imams could afford not to. Lets just get things in perspective. The only Imams who suport Al Qaeda and Osama are crazy fanatics, even in the eyes of the muslim world. Saudi Arabia has had democratisation reforms as a result of 911 and they have aknowledged that they have problems and are trying to deal with it, (since they're the country who's the most responsible for 911).

It is not, "us" against "them". It's more of a class strugle. The poor uneducated losers in the world against the people with money. The problem is that the uneducated tend to pick the wrong targets for their rage. That is the major problem and we have it on both sides. Our uneducated blame Islam and their uneducated blame Western imperialism. Even though there off-course is some truth to it, it is as we all know far more complex.

[mkemse]

Ozme52,
How do you figure that?

I was told this, I was told it is written in history books

[Rhabbi]

According to Wikipedia:
5 to 7 million Jews, based on Nazi documentation, with total murdered coming to 9 to 11 million, "though some estimates have been as high as 26 million."

I don't think this takes into account the millions of civilians killed on the Russian Front by the advancing German armies.

And do not forget the civilians that were murdered by Stalin after the war. Right after the world vowed "Never Again" the Communist Government did the same thing that Hitler did, yet we ignored it because they were an ally during the war, and they soon had the Bomb. It is possible that more Jews were killed in Russia in the years after the war than in Hitler's extermination camps.

Sometimes it makes you wonder, why does a group o0f people that is so small stir up so much hate? Could it truly be possible that the Bible is right, the Jews were chosen by God, and the rest of the world wantas to wipe them out to prove that God does not exist.

There were some powerful stories that came out of the Holocaust to, the most stirring of which is "Schindler's List." Why would a womanizing profiteer take it upon himself to preserve the lives of 1100 factory workers? That is a question that makes no sense unless you factor something bigger than him into the equation.

[mkemse]

try watching "Shoah"





fini

[Thorne]

That's fair, but you still have to give evolution time to work. I mean, you have to...Not devolved but froze.

It seems to me that evolution HAS worked over the last thousand or so years: their culture has frozen, as you say, or gone backwards. Our culture has advanced. But cultural evolution and biological evolution work under different rules. And I believe cultural evolution works a lot faster.

If history teaches us anything it's that whenever people become chauvinist about their culture it stops evolving and in time becomes obsolete. Let's try to avoid that ok?

My point exactly. One facet of the extremist Islamic beliefs seems to be that change is bad. Therefore, no progress.
I'm not an historian, so maybe my facts are off a bit, but I think one can safely say that the beginning of the fall of Arab culture began with the rise of Mohammadism. Once again faith degenerated into religion and the common man suffers while the priests/medicine men/Imams/what-have-you flourish.

[Thorne]

Sometimes it makes you wonder, why does a group o0f people that is so small stir up so much hate? Could it truly be possible that the Bible is right, the Jews were chosen by God, and the rest of the world wantas to wipe them out to prove that God does not exist.

"I know we are the chosen people, but once in a while couldn't you choose someone else?" (Tevya, "Fiddler on the Roof", movie version)
Jews and Arabs have been fighting over the Holy Land since the Exodus, at least. Their hatred of one another has become almost ingrained in their philosophies. I think the early leaders of the Catholic Church have to bear a large part of the blame for Christian hatred of Jews. They needed to distance themselves from the Hebrew faith and making the Jews responsible for the death of Christ was one of the ways they went about it.

There were some powerful stories that came out of the Holocaust to, the most stirring of which is "Schindler's List." Why would a womanizing profiteer take it upon himself to preserve the lives of 1100 factory workers? That is a question that makes no sense unless you factor something bigger than him into the equation.

Actually, I think it's a testament to the basic goodness of mankind. The vast majority of Germans knew nothing of what actually went on in the concentration camps. It wasn't until he started using slave labor that Schindler learned the reality of the "Final Solution". By working with the people in his factories he learned that they were not the subhuman animals that the Nazis portrayed them as. They were people, just like anyone else. It doesn't minimize the enormity of what Schindler did, but I think guilt was the primary driving force behind his actions.

[Ozme52]

Ozme52,
How do you figure that?

I was told this, I was told it is written in history books

Cite your source.

[himind]

It seems to me that evolution HAS worked over the last thousand or so years: their culture has frozen, as you say, or gone backwards. Our culture has advanced. But cultural evolution and biological evolution work under different rules. And I believe cultural evolution works a lot faster.


My point exactly. One facet of the extremist Islamic beliefs seems to be that change is bad. Therefore, no progress.
I'm not an historian, so maybe my facts are off a bit, but I think one can safely say that the beginning of the fall of Arab culture began with the rise of Mohammadism. Once again faith degenerated into religion and the common man suffers while the priests/medicine men/Imams/what-have-you flourish.

The fall of Arab culture sis not begin with the rise of Islam. IN fact for 2-4 centuries following the death of Mohammed, Baghdad was the cultural and technoligical capital of the world in many ways..Many of the ancient texts have reached us through Islamic scholars who preserved Arabic copies when the originals were burent in Constantinople.It's only later with the rise of the Seljuk Turks and other factions that Islam underwent a change and became more and moe xenophobic.Some Islamic scholars are of the opinion that this happened due to influence of the Crusaders,but I don;t think that would be an accurate description. But one thing I have to admit is tha tIslam does give out very conflicting signals,broadmindedness in some ways and extreme narrowmindedness in others.

[TomOfSweden]

It seems to me that evolution HAS worked over the last thousand or so years: their culture has frozen, as you say, or gone backwards. Our culture has advanced. But cultural evolution and biological evolution work under different rules. And I believe cultural evolution works a lot faster.

I think we agree with each other but just using different formulations. According to Richard Dawkins meme theory, cultural evolution can speed up if it allready has evolved somewhere else and there is a will to incorporate the new ideas. So there's scientific backing for your statement. Beating biological evolution in speed doesn't require much though. It's slooooooow.

My point exactly. One facet of the extremist Islamic beliefs seems to be that change is bad. Therefore, no progress.
I'm not an historian, so maybe my facts are off a bit, but I think one can safely say that the beginning of the fall of Arab culture began with the rise of Mohammadism. Once again faith degenerated into religion and the common man suffers while the priests/medicine men/Imams/what-have-you flourish.

I think you're wrong. The spread of monotheism and the extreme intollerance toward other religions and moral codes brought with it some very positive effects. The major effect was reducing xenophobia in trade. You knew you could trust others if they followed the same religion. It's regidity and inflexibility meant stable rules for trade. This was translated to big money and win-win within each region following the same religion. This is quite measurable.

Other positive effects are the monotheistic religions holy books. The rules needed to be written down to be permanent. You needed to read to understand them which enhanced literacy which we all obviously know is a great skill for book keeping, (= more money). Also measurable. There's a clear link between litteracy and BNP.

Islam is a development of Christianity. It's not a new religion. The religious text might not be all that different than the Bible, but it had one strength over it. There's no question that the Koran is the words of Mohammed. Every part of the new testament can be questioned. When Mohammed lived the versio vulgata, (ie the modern Bible) was only one of many variants of the new testament. Here's the info.

It's aparent that Mohammed wanted a more cohesive religion without really changing anything. I've read both the Bible and the Koran. They're pretty interchangable, (yes, I have a thing for religious history). Also when Islam first spread it wasn't meant to be the religion of the people. At first Mohammed had planned it to only be the religion of the ruling elite. Islam isn't anti-christian. It has never been. They embrace it as an integral part of Islam. Mohammed was first and foremost a great polititian and general. There are plenty of letters written in his own hand that have survived that we can read. We know his personal opinions. This is a major difference to christianity. We know absolutely nothing about Jesus other than what says in the Bible, and there was so many different versions of the Bible back then that it's easy to imagine that it could get very confusing.

I think it's more correct to say that the rise of Mohammedism is what made the Arab culture superior to the west European in so many ways. They embraced other religions more than Christians, which off-course meant that they had a greater inflow of ideas, (=more money according to Richard Florida).

I'd say the high-point of Arab culture was more likely something like 800-1200 during the rule of the Caliphate. In no other time in history did they crank out so many inventions western Europe could steal. Modern mathematics and our alphabet being the most significant. After that the area started to get invaded from every direction which ended it's period of inner stability. Under the rule of the Ottomans the Arabs lived under the yoke of a standard imperialistic police state which always sonner or later ends up being corrupt and hampering development. So development was painfully slow up until about 1920, at which time they'd lost any head start they had.

I don't think any ideas spread and become totaly dominant in a region if there's nothing to gain from it. But that doesn't mean that they can't linger a lot longer than what's useful. It's hard to see how being christian of muslim today will lead to any fiscal gains over the non-believers. We have laws that regulate trade so morality doesn't really count in that sector any longer. And people tend to like learning to read for other reasons than reading religious texts.

My very long rant here was just me trying to explain how religion has been great for the world.