Lest we forget

[cariad]

Starting off by saying that I am posting this as an individual, not as a member of staff.

I have personally been very troubled by one of the role plays which is being written at the moment, although support Tiger’s right to give the principle that such things are acceptable here. I know that the story being written is only fantasy, and I am sure the people involved do not endorse the behaviours and attitudes they are describing, but all the same it leaves me feeling very uncomfortable.

I have however just read this news report, which I am posting to hopefully redress the balance. It follows events which mark the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp.

Prime Minister Tony Blair. "The Holocaust was a uniquely terrible event in human history. We are the last generation who will be able to hear directly from its survivors and liberators. We must ensure their testimony does not die," he said. "We must remember, too, those individuals who stood out against this tide of evil, who risked everything in the name of humanity. We must reflect as well that intolerance, hatred, even genocide did not end 60 years ago.

"Holocaust Memorial Day underlines both our duty to remember the horrors of the past and the responsibility of each of us to shape the future so they are never repeated."

Lest we forget

cariad
__________________________
Uncle Ed's companion and angel

[Rabbit1]

We should never forget ---or the same may happen again ---

[Ozme52]

I agree, but very few people actually learn anything from history and human society is doomed to repeat its follies.

And it seems that we are also doomed to be led mostly by people who think they're smarter than those who came before.

[mkemse]

No More Jewry of ANY KIND EVER ,if WWII did not teach us ANY lesson, then we as a Nation, and World will never learn anything ever again

[Ozme52]

No More Jewry of ANY KIND EVER ,if WWII did not teach us ANY lesson, then we as a Nation, and World will never learn anything ever again

Excuse me? I think I've misunderstood your comment... I hope I've misunderstood your comment.

[mkemse]

Ozme52,

You may have, it is an old Jewish saying meaning No JEWS will ever be used or abused by anyone again, it surfaced after WWII, sorry if you were confused it was not my intent, but many people have seen it but do not know it's mean, i saw in in front of a Synagage a few years back, before Russia fell, it was a had a Hammer and Sicke the old Soviet Flag with a Star of David drapped over it and under it raid "No More Soviet Jewlry Ever Again" I went in to ask and the Rabbi told me it mean no more absue to any Jews any where ever again after WWII

My apologies If my coments were miss understood

[mkemse]

Ozme52,

Also Before Russia or Communist Russia fell after WWII, the Old Soviet Union was notorious for it's Refusal to let Runssian Jews Emigrate anywhere thus "Jwery" Jewry meaning they where held in Russia against their will and unable or allowed to move or emigrate anywhere they had to live and die in Russia or in some cases exiled to Syberia and freeze to death

[cariad]

...if WWII did not teach us ANY lesson, then we as a Nation, and World will never learn anything ever again

I suspect that the victims in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Kosovo may suggest that the world shows little sign of having learnt.

cariad

[TomOfSweden]

I'm very aware of the evils of the Holocaust. It doens't change the fact that Nazi uniforms turn me on and that thinking of concentration camps get me a hard on. It's been one of my favorite places to be when I've been masturbating. Me, a pervert, NOOOOO

I totaly understand writing stories with a nazi/holocaust setting. It doesn't make me think it is any less despicable. And I think these stories, (albeit glorifying it) will help us not forget.

But fascism is not dead yet and forgetting becomes so much harder whenever we read about countries like China, Libya or Iran. Fascism is very much alive but has changed it's PR. What we shouldn't forget is that we today can make a difference. So it's not so much a question of forgetting as to get off your ass and demand that your govornements do something about it.

[Uncle_Ed]

I have viewed the role play in question and find my reactions to it are mixed. Primarily I feel extremely weary to see the same old thing wheeled out in the name of "Erotic Writing". In my opinion it shows a questionable sense of morality and a sad lack of originality. I would suspect that most readers will take one look and never return...I hope that perhaps one or two might question the reactions here to it and learn from one of history's greatest episodes of ignorance, intolerance and wickedness. If just one person does that then at least something good will come out of it. Until then I find it a dark stain on our Forum. Just a personal opinion, you understand.

[Rabbit1]

Let freedom ring ---while I find the role play in question --not to my liking ---I do not think it is a stain ---but more of a mark of the freedom we have --to say and do as we please ---but yes we do tend to for get about the lessons from it ----we sat by and seen what Saddam did to his own people in Iraq--as well as Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Kosovo ---when will we learn to step in sooner and not let thousands of people die at the whim of a dictator

Why can we not help a people sooner ---we did the same thing in WWII
we waited until we were attacked ---do these other people not matter

what is wrong with the world and the US in particular----now we are wanting to pull troops out of Iraq ----what do you think will happen to the people there ----we do not care as long as we do not loose a soldier ----let me tell you that today ----soldiers and Marines and all branchs of the service volunteer-----no one forced them to sign up -----they signed up to put their life on the line ---it is part of the job---

even the reserve and the national guard is all volunteer ---they did not mind taking the college benifits when they signed up ---now it is time for them to do something in return for that ---

I am speaking my opinion ----Why do we no longer Care----it was only a good cause because of 911---now we tire of the cause --or the price is too high----is it too high to keep it from happening agian???

these soldiers and Marines are paid to put their life on the line ---I did many times in the service of my country -----If someone has to die ---God let it be soldiers and Marines ---not the innocent that died in 911---that are dieing in Iraq---when Terrorist blow up hundreds of thier own people to get a few soldiers or Marines -----What the hell is that Telling us?

It tells me they do not care about their own people ---and that we damn well need to be there?

sorry just my opinion as a person who does care and give a damn and is pissed off because he can not be in Iraq with his sons

[mkemse]

Before I post I want to make it very clear my post is a question OT a personal opnion,
Is it at all possible that the majorirt of thosewho have nteered for Miltary Service be it the Armed For or the National Guard did is because it was there only way ofgetting an educatoin to advance there lives when their term of duty is over, meainig, maybe they were unable to afford college in any form, could not or did not qualify for any assiatance forhigher education or for Scholorships and that by volunteering they are trying to assurethemselvesandtheir family their ability to achieve success in their future endevours. I know a few peole who did vlolunterr andthey told e they did so forthe education.This is NOT in any way shape or form meant to condem those who volunteered becausethey wanted to servce their country, I havethe Unmost Respect for all those in the srviceregardless of the reason hey choose to join. I am just wonderingif theredecion was also basedo n future education and finacial needs, so they did not end up spending their lives in a small town with no future, or their families could not afford a formal advanced educaion, they did not qualify for any type scholorship for what everthe reaso

I ask these as a question and do not ask this a a way of making a personal political statement.
No i do not support the War In Iraq i believe it was a foreign policy goneery very bad, but YES 1000% i support out troops,always have always will

[Princi]

The Holocaust is not, unfortunately, a singular or unique event in human history. The Holocaust was simply the most organized and the most well publicized event. The reality of human affairs is that once power is concentrated in the hands of a few, millions will suffer.

The rise of Hitler came out of the ruins of Germany after the first World War, which was coming close to an amicable resolution until Wilson successfully manipulated public opinion in the U.S. to believe intervention was necessary. This intervention lead to the collapse of the Czar in Russia (which was not an admirable regime, but much better the Soviet empire that rose after the Czar's fall,) the complete loss of the Germans (which lead to onerous terms of surrender,) and the destruction of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (which despite its flaws was a very sophisticated and tolerant society.) Intervention does not necessarily lead to positive results. When foreign governments begin poking their nose into the problems of other nations only more problems will arise. Iraq being a good case in point, we had no idea how that society had evolved and no idea how to deal with the multiple elements of that society when we did get involved; now there are more problems and many of the assets needed to defeat actual enemies are being sidelined in Iraq.

As for the roleplaying of Nazi concentration camps, not my thing at all. Free speech, however, is free speech. If that is what somebody gets off on, that is their issue (assuming it really is an issue) to deal with. Their fantasies should not be supressed because some find it tasteless. No ones tastes or moral codes are necessarily correct and should not be imposed upon others.

Regards,
Princi

[mkemse]

One other place not mentioned but very much in the midst of Genocide is Darfur

[Rabbit1]

I did not mean to imply that all military ----entered only for the college benifits ----there are however many that did enter the National guard and Reserve --for that purpose for help with their college ---never even thinking they would be called upon to put their life on the line ----I know I commanded a Marine Reserve Unit ----And I stressed during our trainning that we could be called upon at anytime to lay our lives down in the service of our country ---many were shocked when called up during the first Gulf conflict ---and they did not want to go ---but they signed the dotted line and had little choice ---Because in the Reserve if you fail to show up for Training or if activated ---you are put on active duty to serve out your term of service

Most of our Brave Men and Women in the Service of our country Knew and know exactly what it meant to Enlist ---they knew that they may be asked to pay the price with their life ----and sadly many have ----and it would be a real dishonor to them to pull out before the task is completed as they would have gave their lives in vain ---Just like the friends and family I lost in Vietnam ---

there was a new show on the other day and the men and women in the service of our country in Iraq were finally interviewed and they were discouraged by the talk from back home ---of leaving ---they take it as lack of support ---as we think they can not do the job they were sent to do

that was their words not mine ---yes there are a few who do not want to be there ----but for the most part they know what they are doing is right and they invited anyone who has doubts to come and follow them ---not just come into the country and look around all safe and secure and meet with heads of government ---to come and folllow them into the streets meet the real people of Iraq ----not the extremest---the real people that follow their ways of life ---

has anyone in our government taken up that challege ---don't think so

The peace loving people of Iraq do not sell papers or get rating on TV

[mkemse]

Rabbit1,

As I mentioned my post was a question nothing more, I do not know, since you are Miltary you have a much better gauge then I so, that was reason for my post, I was seeking answers rather then offeriing either personal opionion or stating fact and I appreciate your recognizing that, thank you

[TomOfSweden]

I am speaking my opinion ----Why do we no longer Care----it was only a good cause because of 911---now we tire of the cause --or the price is too high----is it too high to keep it from happening agian???

I think we do care and I think the reasons behind the our problems to get organised stem from some basic problems modern democracies in the world are facing. We, (humans) like to define ourselves by what we're not. So the democratic political system in all democratic countries have followed much the same polarised pattern, (please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere on earth. I would love to be).

Is there not in every democratic country two dominant parties? One is liberal/leftist? Mostly pacifistic and tend to negotiatiate with every enemy even when negotiation is pointless, (Saddam! Hitler!)? The reason they keep doing it even after everybody agrees on it being pointless is because they can't agree on which affirmative action to chose? They also tend to be cultural relativists and don't want to step on the sensitivities of various cultural groups which off-course is totaly paralysing because you always step on somebodies toes, no matter what you do. It effectively ties your hands behind your back?

The other party being the conservative/right-wing, seemingly driven mostly by fear? More police, more hard-line, more army more agressiveness? More paranoia all around? Also it's voters tend to be from the lower and uneducated classes which makes the analysis of the conflict very shallow and choice of action that the voters agree on far too course and simplistic?

Is there any democratic country on earth I didn't sum up correctly here, (give or take a label)? It's certainly true for Sweden and most countries in Europe.

If this is the case we have one political party/side who understands the problem but are unwilling to do what ever is needed and the other political side who is willing but lacks the understanding to pull it off. I know, extremly simplified but I do think it sums it up.

To be absolutely clear. When I say political party, I do mean the voters. The party just do and say what the voters want them to. That is the nature of democracy.

Just caring isn't enough.

[Ozme52]

Ozme52,

You may have, it is an old Jewish saying meaning No JEWS will ever be used or abused by anyone again, it surfaced after WWII, sorry if you were confused it was not my intent, but many people have seen it but do not know it's mean, i saw in in front of a Synagage a few years back, before Russia fell, it was a had a Hammer and Sicke the old Soviet Flag with a Star of David drapped over it and under it raid "No More Soviet Jewlry Ever Again" I went in to ask and the Rabbi told me it mean no more absue to any Jews any where ever again after WWII

My apologies If my coments were miss understood

Also Before Russia or Communist Russia fell after WWII, the Old Soviet Union was notorious for it's Refusal to let Runssian Jews Emigrate anywhere thus "Jwery" Jewry meaning they where held in Russia against their will and unable or allowed to move or emigrate anywhere they had to live and die in Russia or in some cases exiled to Syberia and freeze to death

No offense intended mkemse, but if you're going to make political or social commentary of the sort that creates intense debate and want to be understood, I strongly suggest a spell checker, a grammar checker, and maybe even a fact checker. (Your representation of historical events and timelines are a little off.)

As to the saying... I believe you've misquoted the translation from what was probably written in Russian in Cyrillic... or maybe in Hebrew in Hebraic.

"No More Jewry" and "Never Again" have opposite meanings...

I have lots of contacts in many communities and have never heard a Jew say "No More Jewry"

"Never Again" on the other hand is quite often spoken of. I doubt it is a matter of "my confusion."

[Ozme52]

I think we do care and I think the reasons behind the our problems to get organised stem from some basic problems modern democracies in the world are facing. We, (humans) like to define ourselves by what we're not. So the democratic political system in all democratic countries have followed much the same polarised pattern, (please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere on earth. I would love to be).

Is there not in every democratic country two dominant parties? One is liberal/leftist? Mostly pacifistic and tend to negotiatiate with every enemy even when negotiation is pointless, (Saddam! Hitler!)? The reason they keep doing it even after everybody agrees on it being pointless is because they can't agree on which affirmative action to chose? They also tend to be cultural relativists and don't want to step on the sensitivities of various cultural groups which off-course is totaly paralysing because you always step on somebodies toes, no matter what you do. It effectively ties your hands behind your back?

The other party being the conservative/right-wing, seemingly driven mostly by fear? More police, more hard-line, more army more agressiveness? More paranoia all around? Also it's voters tend to be from the lower and uneducated classes which makes the analysis of the conflict very shallow and choice of action that the voters agree on far too course and simplistic?

Is there any democratic country on earth I didn't sum up correctly here, (give or take a label)? It's certainly true for Sweden and most countries in Europe.

If this is the case we have one political party/side who understands the problem but are unwilling to do what ever is needed and the other political side who is willing but lacks the understanding to pull it off. I know, extremly simplified but I do think it sums it up.

To be absolutely clear. When I say political party, I do mean the voters. The party just do and say what the voters want them to. That is the nature of democracy.

Just caring isn't enough.

Tom,

I'm not sure it's as black and white as that... but as one who tends to lean to the right... my concern is that while I have no problem with knocking you flat on your back for bloodying my nose or even one of my friends' noses, (a somewhat simplified analogy,) I don't want to be the bully of the neighborhood either.

I'm concerned that this time... we've been just that... the neighborhood bully. I don't know... it's something that will be better understood in 20 years...

[mkemse]

Ozme52,

No More Jwery, Never again was posted in front of a synogage, I was simply relating what I saw and what I was told both those there, he said there will never be jews held againts agiant their will, ever again
i was simply tell what I saw and what a Rabbi told me and explained to me
nothing more nothing less, maybe they gave me the wrong translation, i had never seen that expression before i have never seen it since i was it and received the explanation I recieved

[Ozme52]

No More Jewry of ANY KIND EVER ,if WWII did not teach us ANY lesson, then we as a Nation, and World will never learn anything ever again

Ozme52,

No More Jwery, Never again was posted in front of a synogage, I was simply relating what I saw and what I was told both those there, he said there will never be jews held againts agiant their will, ever again
i was simply tell what I saw and what a Rabbi told me and explained to me
nothing more nothing less, maybe they gave me the wrong translation, i had never seen that expression before i have never seen it since i was it and received the explanation I recieved

MY point is that you aren't even accurate at quoting yourself.

[mkemse]

I am human i make mistakes, sorry, but have a great night anyway

[cariad]

and mkemse, I for one embrace your humanity, and forgive you your mistakes, particularly since if were not for some very skilled teachers and some equally good friends, I would not write for if I did it would be unintelligible to all but the initiated.

Generally I use all the tricks available, then hope, post and hope again. But I also follow CC's recently reiterated advice to me - "It occurs to me that you still have dyslekky moments, usually I can work out what you mean, but I do wonder whether people who know you less well, or are reading it in a more emotional state, might 'fill the gap' differently, and misinterpret you. You might want to consider asking someone to read through to check on things that are going to be key messages"

hugs
cariad

[mkemse]

cariad,

thank you for your kind remarks, I appreciate them
I also enjoy reading what you ost when you do, it is always very well said
hugs back to you

[TomOfSweden]

Tom,

I'm not sure it's as black and white as that... but as one who tends to lean to the right... my concern is that while I have no problem with knocking you flat on your back for bloodying my nose or even one of my friends' noses, (a somewhat simplified analogy,) I don't want to be the bully of the neighborhood either.

I'm concerned that this time... we've been just that... the neighborhood bully. I don't know... it's something that will be better understood in 20 years...

I agree with the basic theory. But what if you only will lose in the long run from knocking the guy on the back. If it's only down to pride and the other guy will never back down, then it's not the smart thing to do. Pride in international politics is never helpful.

Sometimes punishment, simply doesn't work. If the person being punished doesn't accept the punishment. All you've done is strengthen the behaviour. Then you'll need to break the person down mentaly to win. And that's a lose-lose.

Can you tell that I lean to the left? But I'm a bit of a disgrace for the leftists though, because I root the the right in lots of issues, (like invading Iraq for one).

edit: And yes off-course it's a simplification. Off-course. Simplifications are more fun to read.

[mkemse]

TomOfSweden,
i am trying to determine from your post if you supported the invaion of Iraq by the US or not, you also have a typo in your post
because I root the the right in lots of issues, (like invading Iraq for one).
i assume you meant I root to theright or forthe right?? not making fun justnot sure hat you mean
If you mean you supported the United States Invasion of Iraq, it may very well go down in United State Histioy as the biggest Foreign Policy Blumder we as a Nation have ever had,

[TomOfSweden]

TomOfSweden,
i am trying to determine from your post if you supported the invaion of Iraq by the US or not, you also have a typo in your post
because I root the the right in lots of issues, (like invading Iraq for one).
i assume you meant I root to theright or forthe right?? not making fun justnot sure hat you mean
If you mean you supported the United States Invasion of Iraq, it may very well go down in United State Histioy as the biggest Foreign Policy Blumder we as a Nation have ever had,

I supported an invasion of Iraq. There's more positions than just for or against. There's an infinite number of alternative strategies rather than the sceniaro that played itself out.

Who knows what had happened if USA hadn't done what they did. I think the way it happened was better than talking about it for another 10 years. If that's my options then I'm all for USA, (go USA w00t). But in my head, (without a degree in international politics, anthropology, sociology, conflict studies etc ) I can think of a myriad of ways to do the invasion that would lead to a much more stable post-war Iraq.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between rooting "for or to the right". I cast my vote on the conservatives last year. Simply becuase they are in practice the liberals here. I hate politics. Trying to confuse us with non-sensicle labels that made sense in the 19'th century. I'm a liberal and that doesn't really fit on the right-left scale.

[mkemse]

I beelive the difference is you can be a liberal democrat but support a right wing idea and plan, or you can be a liberal democrta and not support them,
Our Presiednt as a matte r of public record said prior to going into Iraq that "We will be in and Out in 90 days" now everyone is asking "90 days from when" diplomacy should KWya be TRIED first, invasion and military action should alwaysbe the last option
If i have a squabble with my neighbor I woulsd rather try anddiscuss the issue with him rather then call the police and talk

[Thorne]

...There's an infinite number of alternative strategies rather than the sceniaro that played itself out...
I can think of a myriad of ways to do the invasion that would lead to a much more stable post-war Iraq...

You have to remember, you're talking about a region which has been almost constant turmoil since the first ape started walking around on two legs. People in the middle east have been killing one another for political, economic and religious reasons, or for no reason at all, without any help from the rest of the world. The only time they seem to stop and band together is when the rest of the world stick their noses in and try to calm things down.

As I see it, speaking as a US citizen, we have several options.
1) We can get together with the rest of the civilized world and isolate the middle east. Build a virtual wall around it and don't let anyone in or out. Just trade them small arms for oil and watch them kill themselves off.
2) Several years ago I recall reading about the US developing a neutron bomb, one which would destroy life without destroying infrastructure. So just sterilize the place and be done with it.
3) Help the Israelis take over the Temple Mount and rebuild their Temple. As I understand it, this will signal the end times and we won't have to worry about much of anything anymore.
4) Use every political means at our disposal and instigate yet another Arab/Israeli war, but this time keep the UN from stopping Israel when they start winning.
5) My favorite: Crank up the space program so we can move the rational part of Earth's population (both of us) to a new solar system. Leave the Earth to the zealots.

[mkemse]

TomOfSweden,

The current reality is whether the United States is involved in a conflct there or NOT the Middle East and Iraw specificly will see no peace or stability well beyond my life time thier sectarian war will go on for years to come and nothing the United States does will quell this, plus we as a nation have no right to be involved in a sectarian war there, we as a nation have other issues to deal with,, like drug traffacking, homlessness gas prices ect, i would love the see the US put as much tim, effort, energy into solving the problems of our own homeland as we always seem to have policing the world
This does nt mean donothelp other nation, it means let's take care of our own first
Their used to be a say "If you want and need your country rebuild get into a war with the United States, they will happily rebuild your country for you"