Political Correctness in the Lifestyle

[Ocean_Soul]

In another thread some people were talking about “politically correct” views in this lifestyle. I’m curious as to what would be considered to be non-politically correct in this lifestyle. Something that would be held by someone else that would cause you to look down on them or would be found offensive.

In a lifestyle where drinking urine and giving rim jobs are discussed openly, bisexuality is almost encouraged and some even give up plenty of rights I don’t see many things being non politically correct except those things that are beyond Safe Sane and Consensual.

[MajesticFae]

Political correctness (often abbreviated to PC) is a term used to describe language or behavior which is intended, or said to be intended, to provide a minimum of offense, particularly to racial, cultural, or other identity groups

Since I've always been a bit foggy on the term "politically correct" I went and grabbed the definition from wikipedia.

I think it depends on who you are discussing things with whether it is politically correct or not. You never know what people will be offended by. If you're talking to nilla people about BDSM, they may become offended, thus they view BDSM as not politically correct.

Within the realm of BDSM, we have our own taboos. Certain people deem certain things as taboo, that others do not. But since the majority of those more common taboos fall outside the realm of SSC, they might be the only non politically correct things. Since we as a community are relatively open about our kinks and such and we do not say things meaning to offend but only offer guidance, advice and opinions, I think everything could be deemed politcally correct. I'm with you, Oceal_Soul. The only things for me that would fall outside of the realm of politically correct are things that aren't SSC.

[Guest 91108]

Sometimes i wonder if Safe sane and consensual is in itself prescribing to the politicially correctness crowd.

Either one likes what I do or they don't.
If they don't, they won't be around long.
If i don't like what they do , I won't be around long.
It works both ways and that is about all i care to go into what is politically correct or not.

[_ID_]

Sometimes i wonder if Safe sane and consensual is in itself prescribing to the politicially correctness crowd.

I actually agree with Wolfscout on this point.

SSC is a term we use to describe a situation that for safety sake should be adhered to, and then we further quantify it to say anything outside of SSC is not acceptable.

Personally I prescribe to the term RACK
http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...highlight=RACK

As far as what is considered politically correct or incorrect, we as people very often times try to say things without offending others. This includes our inner circles within BDSM.

When people talk about different activities and different fetishes, if it falls outside of what is generally accepted as a kink we tend to be non-committal in our distaste .

The Beastiality thread on this site is a good example. There were a couple people that found the idea of that activity quite abhorrent. Though it isn't my kink, I certainly wasn't going to call the activity sick. That activity is certainly politically incorrect. Another example would be scat play. Admittedly there are some inherent health risks with that, and it would fall outside of the generally accepted activities within BDSM, so it would qualify as politically incorrect.

As to the original thread, and what is politically correct or not. To say something very general about the idea of a collar, is in my view a very good way to not offend someone, and under the definition provided above. That falls into the view of politically correct.

[Ocean_Soul]

Like MajecticFae said, what is politically can be considered relative. However politically correct refers mainly to views of some form of a majority. Otherwise it would be in the realm personal views.

And I don’t see SSC as being part of a “crowd” or specific group other than the BDSM community as a whole. Some people may take it further to mean other things but I doubt anyone here would disagree with its basic principles. Otherwise they would probably be in a rape forum rather than a BDSM forum. Safe is relative to a person’s individual values and motivations. However sane and consensual is pretty straight forward. Don’t lose yourself in the situation and, well, both people have to be willing. Beating your slave while on acid or kidnapping are generally a bad things.

And RACK is another good acronym as there is always risk in everything and we may as well acknowledge that risk. Whether it’s during a vanilla activity or other. However I’m not going to assume you believe sane and consensual are unimportant.

However, back to the political correctness situation. Perhaps I don’t see many things as really being politically incorrect in this lifestyle because I am fairly open about the various things that go on and support people’s right to carry do what they wish. If I were to be hesitant to mention something I would be so primarily be to protect myself from embarrassment by mentioning them to people who don’t understand rather than to not offend anyone.

So far I would say that, yes, bestiality is something that is politically incorrect for various reasons. It’s probably why we see toilet seats for people to stick their heads under for sale but not canine strap-ons.

And as far as the collar issue is concerned; yes, saying something politically correct about a collar is a way of not offending someone. That’s for the most part the definition of politically correct. However what would something politically incorrect about a collar be? I think people are more afraid to put their deepest feelings down on the table, whichever the topic may be, by virtue of the fact that they are very dear to a person’s heart rather than fear of offending someone. Perhaps you didn’t mean politically correct in the first place.

[_ID_]

Politically correct = non offensive / safe statement / non judgmental.

Not politically correct = that personal view that doesn't fall into the above category.

since you need things spelled out for you. Here is an example. I have already stated my belief in the collar thread, so if you want to know if it's my personal view or not, go check the thread.

A collar makes a submissive a slave, and slaves have no rights, no possessions, A slave has one purpose, to obey without question.

Now while the above might be someones view on collars and what status they represent, it would certainly not be what most people would find acceptable. Therefore it would not be politically correct. You or I might not find disagreement with it, but that doesn't make it politically correct.

Need further explanation? If you do, do some research.

[TomOfSweden]

For me when people mention "PC people" or "PC statements", it's not the things said that is important, only the demeanor of the people saying them. It's always people who are quick to judge and constantly look for "safe" things to be fanatical about or against. It's people who like to get emotionally riled up about stuff but really don't have much going for them in their lives.

I group them together with moralists. There's nothing wrong with being politically correct, but the term "pc" doesn't really refer to the statement being made does it? Or am I totally wrong here?

edit: In the BDSM crowd, I always find them, fat and/or nerdy; they're standing in the bar at the fetish party debating loudly about stuff they'll never experience, while all the fun people are doing it in the play rooms.

[ElectricBadger]

To me, most of the examples above are things that could be offensive, but not really violations of 'political correctness.' As the wikipedia quote above put it well, PC is avoiding offenses against an identity group; that is, things that could be seen as racist, sexist, or otherwise bigoted.

Generally, the issues I see that stride across that line include racial and religious fetishes, and gender-defined roles.

I can't personally understand how anyone can have a racially-centered fetish without having some assumptions about the role of race in society. But then, I've never had a chance to talk it over, either. Either way, every porn gallery seems to have a section of inter-racial stuff, often larger than the bdsm section.

Gender roles would be more than individual cases of top and bottom...it would be the assumption, for instance, that all women have submissive tendencies or should be dehumanized. That changes the discussion from a specific case of power exchange (however offensive it may be) to bias or preconception about others. This is often a 'charge' levied against Gorean advocates, for instance.

Other issues could be cultural or religious. I just posted a series of burqa-centered pornographic images, for instance, which could be interpreted as an attack on customs or beliefs. Other fantasy images or scenarios -- such as the naughty nun or pedophiliac priest -- could be intended or interpreted not simply as pornography but as a broader prejudgement of an entire belief system.

All this said, I'm not entirely sure how beneficial the PC phenomenon is; layers of censorship regarding minority groups seems unlikely to lead to equality, but we should at least be aware of when we're offensive and why.

[Rhabbi]

Politically correct in the lifestyle is a slippery slope. Look at what happens in the real world and you can see that PC is a silly and basically unworkable idea anyway. We hear things everyday that if we said them in public would get us in major hot water. Try calling a woman slut at work and see what happens.

[Dragon's muse]

i avoid PC whenever possible. In a plant catalogue i received in the mail, there was an advertisement for (i swear i am not making this up) Native American Hawthorne!

That is a perfect example of what PC does, primarily a large number of people take it to a ridiculous extreme.

[Ocean_Soul]

Okay, never mind IDCrewDawg, go ahead and start making up definitions, just please include you’re new definition with its usage so we can make sense of it. Afraid to open up and share our deepest feelings has nothing to do with PC or non-PC.

Yes, I know your view on collars already, I did see the thread. A little hard to understand but I got the message anyway. But that has nothing to do with the current topic anyway.

And the mere fact that someone doesn’t share the same view doesn’t make it politically incorrect.......

Anyway, it really doesn’t matter, you have a different definition of PC anyway.

“Need further explanation? If you do, do some research.”

I am, hence why I started this thread in the fist place. Or did you mean in a book? I haven’t found any books titled “Political Correctness in the BDSM Community” yet but if you know of one, please direct me to it.

Thanks

[Ocean_Soul]

Thank you ElectricBadger that was exactly the kind of post I was looking for. Great post. I think you hit the nail on the head on the points you gave.

[_ID_]

A few links on the subject. Done with about 5 seconds spent on Google.

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywo...wall/4219/#pcd

http://www.leatherleadership.org/lib...LC6Baldwin.htm

Although this book isn't about being politically correct, one of the reviewers interpreted it to be a politically correct book.
(**link edited out)

Then there is a well written article on the over use of SSC.
http://www.domsub.info/sscmistake.html

Though this article doesn't directly mention political correctness within the lifestyle. It does elude to a need of general acceptance of activities by the masses. Though this may not fit the strict definition of politically correct, I think it does skirt showing some prejudice towards those with that strict adherence to the idea of SSC.

A short paragraph from the page I linked

"If we are content to do SM scenes that are SSC by prescription, we doom ourselves to imitative play and to never know what those older SMers were so all-fired excited about. We reduce our SM-sexuality to side-show pleasures and risk never knowing what all the older folks were talking about when they spoke of "going away" in a scene. We risk never seeing why they called SM "work" not play or understanding why they’re so sure SM is a life and a spirit not a lifestyle or a fun way to pass time."

As far as my definition being different than what you understand. It's my view, that anything said in such a way as not to offend anyone viewing or hearing it falls into a politically correct statement. If it was put that way out of fear of reprisal or persecution... Well, I do hope that one day you can find that inner strength to speak your mind.


V/R
ID

[Ocean_Soul]

“As far as my definition being different than what you understand.”

Actually, I was partially wrong, your definition of PC isn’t simply wrong it actually keeps changing based on whether you are accusing someone of being PC or defending your right to call someone PC.

“Well, I do hope that one day you can find that inner strength to speak your mind.”

Uh-oh, another ambiguous jab from IDCrewDawg based on no information and only there as a matter of deception, delusion or wishful thinking, I’m not sure which yet.

But thanks, I'll check out the links. Which Google search term did you use btw?

[Flaming_Redhead]

*stalks in wearing my black patent leather thigh-high lace-up stilletto Domme boots and waving my riding crop threateningly*

Boys....tsk tsk....I love a good debate, but let's try to show a little more restraint. After all, as DOMS, in order to command the respect of others, you must also show some respect for others. At the very least, practice common courtesy. I'm quite confident in your ability to speak your mind without resorting to sarcastic jabs. Now, let's all be nice and stop pissing on my brand new boots! THANK YOU! *gives each a SWAT on the ass*

[wingsofanangel]

this is getting a lil out of hand...

I don't think insulting ones thoughts or ability to understand is going to get things answered.

Be nice... because you both are starting to look ... well not very nice! -waggles a finger-

Anyway...

I guess I tend to view things in a "PC" way when refering to BDSM.

Our "PC" is still other people "INSANE!" ... and well... our "PC" is about the only spice I need in my life.

Pointing out the more "PC" view of something or general idea is NOT a bad thing.

Some people learn from books and facts others learn from people and ideas... is either way wrong? No.

I love when a topic has definitions from WIKI and peoples personal thoughts. It helps me gain a more well rounded idea of what something is and what it means.. and how many apply it.

I hope that sort of answers the questions Ocean.

anya

[anonymouse]

In another thread some people were talking about “politically correct” views in this lifestyle. I’m curious as to what would be considered to be non-politically correct in this lifestyle. Something that would be held by someone else that would cause you to look down on them or would be found offensive.

There are two things I find personally confronting within the scene. The first is interracial play of white dominant/black slave. It's not something I apply any kind of PC judgement on, as I know the couple very well and know them to be very much in love with each other. It's simply that I feel uncomfortable watching them play together, probably because of some kind of PC guilt on my part.

The second is a uniform fetish involving Nazi paraphenalia. This fetish is more confronting to me in fiction and fantasy than it is in real life, probably because in real life scenes I've witnessed, the uniform was just a costume and I knew the people wearing them were not in the least anti-Semitic. The BDSM PC-incorrectness for this fetish thus varies according to locality.

The third... (OK, so there are three things. I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition! lol) I find hard core M/F humiliation scenes difficult to watch. I've seen some that appear to border on misogyny and my feeling is misogyny has no place in BDSM. However, it's again also the case that my perceptions and feelings of the scenes I've witnessed were contradicted by those actually engaged in the play. Clearly, some women enjoy that kind of profound humiliation so, it's not my place to impose any kind of PC judgement on it.

Viva l'tolerance!

anonymouse

[Eponine]

Didn't feel it was my place, or couldn't figure out a way to say it, but I'm glad you did... Hope the boys are settled down and the rulers are all put away...

...so what was the original topic? oh yeah.. lol

I have to say- I don't know for sure, but I do get the sense that sometimes when people post here, they couch their words to some extent (except for some). So, honestly, I have followed suit, not wanting to be banned or post threads and never get a response from anyone.

That's all!

[Ocean_Soul]

I can’t help but notice that so far the only people who have said anything regarding this have been women. The fact is, this is sometimes how men resolve problems. I’m not trying to be sexist, it’s simply a fact that men and women deal with things differently.

Moreover, I don’t think anything I’ve said in reply to someone has been remotely flawed in my reasoning and logic and if it has, anyone here is free to point it out. So far only one of my comments has been caught not directly nailing down an idea and that’s the only one someone could and has taken issue with.

I admit I have a slightly acidic tone but considering I’m dealing with unjustified personal attacks I don’t think it’s entirely unreasonable or unexpected.

It’s my personality to defend my ideas and opinions and the reason is two fold. One is for the obvious defense of what I hold to be right, the other is to put my ideas out there and see how well they stand up. After all, I am not the cornerstone of all knowledge even though I sometime may present ideas in such a way by virtue of the fact that I’m fairly confident with them (or have a big ego, I’m not sure which).

I was quite happy to let this die but three “now settle down boys” posts is a little much for me to let be.

I'll deal with the actual topic of this thread tomorrow (or when it's not 2AM), now that I've gotten that off my chest.

[ElectricBadger]

For the record, I'm the one who initially flagged this thread as a potential issue, and I have certified boy parts.

You are welcome and encouraged to state opinions and defend your ideas and opinions; that's good and proper and what we're all here to enjoy. But this is descending into personal attacks. It's the classic kindergarten conundrum...who does the teacher punish, the one who hit or the one who hit back? In my experience, both.

This thread is based on a good question. Lets keep it polite and on topic so we don't have to shut it down, eh?

[cariad]

I have to say- I don't know for sure, but I do get the sense that sometimes when people post here, they couch their words to some extent (except for some). So, honestly, I have followed suit, not wanting to be banned or post threads and never get a response from anyone.

One of the simplest and best explanations I have found of flaming comes from Aesop's post at the top of the Religion and Philosophy forum -

...This forum is not here for flaming. This means that insults against a poster or his views won't be tolerated at all. You can debate a view all you want, but a direct insult may result in a forum banning. An example of the difference follows:

Example: "Catholics suck!" Is not appropriate at any time. "I think what the Catholics believe about ______ is wrong because of _____" Is appropriate.

Civil discussion is expected. Remember that these are people you are dealing with and not just words on a screen. If the best you have to offer is swearing or slander than move on to a new topic.

Respect folks. It all comes down to respecting your fellow human beings' right to have an opinion. We are all involved in BDSM in some way or we wouldn't be here and one of the biggest tenets of our lifestyle is respect. Respect from a submissive to a dominant, respect of a submissive's limits from a dominant, and respect that your kink might not be my kink and that's okay. If we can have that kind of respect for each other BDSM-wise than we can certainly have it everywhere else.

Enjoy.

This simple principle applies to all parts of these forums.

Generally speaking, if there is a problem, our preferred method is to send a member a PM, privately asking them to modify their style of posting. Again, generally speaking this works well, and apart from the people directly involved, nobody is aware. That is right, and is how it will stay.

This is a method which is honouring to everyone, but does mean that sometimes the mods may appear to be doing nothing, although they are actually very busy behind the scenes. If any member has a problem with posts, it would be helpful to if they would either PM the person(s) responsible for the posts, or PM one of the mods responsible for the particular forum or a supermod or admin.

We do also now have a system of infraction points, which work rather like points on a UK driving license - don't know if the same system works in other countries. All mods can give infraction points.

5 points within 30 days is a 10 day ban
10 points within 30 days is a permanent ban
Spamming is an automatic 10 points

Underage 10 points = auto ban
Posting Spammed Advertisements 10 points = auto ban
Flaming Other Member(s) 5 points = auto 10 day ban
Hot Linking Pictures to other sites 2 points
Posting Pic w/ web addresses or copyright 2 points

Giving infraction points is however not a measure which any mod uses lightly, and each one of us is accountable to each other and ultimately Rabbit (in loco Tiger) for any points which we give. Anyone who is given infraction points is told in a PM or email, and given a explanation of why.

Why do we have this system? It is not so that we can 'punish' members. It is so that we have a system of, if necessary, enforcing the forum rules in order to keep this a safe and enjoyable place to be.

If anyone wishes to post something, and is not sure of whether it is within the site rules, please feel free to ask for guidance. I have on occasion been sent the draft of proposed post to give my comments on. I have been very happy to do that, as I am sure are all the other staff members.

I hope that some of the threads which have run recently have shown that members are treated as adults, and we do allow strong debate without anyone getting banned. We will however not allow personal insult, as EB said, regardless of whether it is an initial insult or one given as counter attack. Which takes me very nicely back to the Aesop's quote.

Please relax, respect each other, enjoy agreeing and disagreeing with each other's views, and enjoy being part of this community. Oh, and EB, although I had never doubted it, I am delighted to hear that you have certified boy parts.

cariad

*steps back and lets the mods continue with their great job*

[TomOfSweden]

There are two things I find personally confronting within the scene. The first is interracial play of white dominant/black slave. It's not something I apply any kind of PC judgement on, as I know the couple very well and know them to be very much in love with each other. It's simply that I feel uncomfortable watching them play together, probably because of some kind of PC guilt on my part.

The second is a uniform fetish involving Nazi paraphenalia. This fetish is more confronting to me in fiction and fantasy than it is in real life, probably because in real life scenes I've witnessed, the uniform was just a costume and I knew the people wearing them were not in the least anti-Semitic. The BDSM PC-incorrectness for this fetish thus varies according to locality.

The third... (OK, so there are three things. I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition! lol) I find hard core M/F humiliation scenes difficult to watch. I've seen some that appear to border on misogyny and my feeling is misogyny has no place in BDSM. However, it's again also the case that my perceptions and feelings of the scenes I've witnessed were contradicted by those actually engaged in the play. Clearly, some women enjoy that kind of profound humiliation so, it's not my place to impose any kind of PC judgement on it.

Viva l'tolerance!

anonymouse

I've been writing on a story for a bit about a black/white couple where the guy really is a nazi and so is the woman. Only to confront my own feelings and emotions about this. I haven't gotten very far and it is so incredibly offensive, (ie non-PC) even when it's clearly only a twisted fantasy.

We'll see if it becomes anything. I don't know in which direction to take it. My instinct is to make it some happy ending where they both understand that it's only about love, but then again, that's a bit "Hollywood". It would be more fun if it just gets worse and worse. But that in turn would be very hard to write. Especially since my number one favorite proof-reader is Jewish

[TomOfSweden]

Generally speaking, if there is a problem, our preferred method is to send a member a PM, privately asking them to modify their style of posting. Again, generally speaking this works well, and apart from the people directly involved, nobody is aware.

You haven't told me off in a while. Either I'm learning, (=highly unlikely) or you're slacking off

[ElectricBadger]

Aye, Tom, I think that's one benefit and danger of the scene...we can confront the darker side of ourselves and others, and seek to understand that...but it's easy for the outside observer to mistake that experimentation as approval.

Oh, and EB, although I had never doubted it, I am delighted to hear that you have certified boy parts.

And lo, Proof!

[cariad]

You haven't told me off in a while. Either I'm learning, (=highly unlikely) or you're slacking off

Grins - well I believe in miracles even if you don't But if you would like me to put my Domme hat on for a little while and come stalking into your inbox lashing my whip, you only have to ask.

And lo, Proof!

I can sleep easy at night now.