the story of Our Lady "the Virgin Mary" in the muslims holly book (quran)

[domaster]

thank you Dear friends
and Thorne I think you know a lot about religions for someone who does not believe in God
I do not know if that you was a believer in God or you was searching for God because it is impossible to be an atheist and knowledgeable religion
I do not understand this thing ... you Want to prove the existence of God ...
Human born on instinct
If you think you are very distinct and very special for the rest of humanity
And you deserve to waived God just for you
To show you signs or miracles to believe in him?
well u can wait for it ... who know ...
Signs and wonders before us every day and every thing
Leading thinkers and scientists around the world, after hoping and thinking and research have recognized the inevitability of a Creator of this universe
other video maybe will hellp u
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd08KIqkrZw

And I hope that your response or intolerance without anger or insults
Just conversation

[Thorne]

Thorne I think you know a lot about religions for someone who does not believe in God
I do not know if that you was a believer in God or you was searching for God because it is impossible to be an atheist and knowledgeable religion

I don't claim to know a LOT about religion, but I am learning, and the more I do learn the more secure I become in my atheism.

But why do you think it's impossible to be both an atheist and knowledgeable about religion? Most modern atheists were raised in religious homes and communities, as I was. It is through the study of our religions that we realized the fallacies of religion.

I do not understand this thing ... you Want to prove the existence of God ...

That's not quite true. I think it is as impossible to prove the existence of gods as it is impossible to prove they do NOT exist. What I ask is that you prove that your religious beliefs are true. Prove that prayer works. Prove that there is a soul. Prove that there is a heaven. We cannot even show reliable evidence that there is any kind of life after death, despite the beliefs of billions!

If you think you are very distinct and very special for the rest of humanity
And you deserve to waived God just for you
To show you signs or miracles to believe in him?

Quite the opposite. I do NOT believe that I'm special or any different than anyone else. I have, perhaps, certain talents, but lack other talents. You, I'm sure, also have certain talents, and lack some others. We are all similar, though not identical.

I suppose what I am saying, though, is that, according to your religions, God made me, which means he made me an atheist. But being an atheist I can see past the trappings of religions and ask the question, "IS there a god?" And if you ask that question without assuming that gods exist you force yourself to find evidence for that existence. And there is none.

other video maybe will hellp u

I don't have the time or the inclination to go through 40+ minutes of this, so it's fortunate that he exposes his fallacy in the very beginning. The speaker says,

We know that when a person dies ... that the spirit of the individual is brought back, and he or she hears ... their footsteps. Then two angels, who will be jet black with blue eyes, will come and sit up the individual in the grave... and ask three questions.

My question is, HOW do we know this? Who has seen this? Who has recorded it? Where is the evidence for it? And the only answers I can find say that NO ONE has seen this. So he doesn't KNOW this, he BELIEVES it. But apparently he cannot tell the difference between the two.

So, I offer you this video in return. Hitchens is a leader in the atheist community, a brilliant speaker, and far more eloquent than I can be.

And I hope that your response or intolerance without anger or insults
Just conversation

I will try. It is difficult sometimes when, as an atheist, I am constantly being called evil, or delusional, or having my position deliberately misrepresented, or being compared to Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

But you must understand that, to me, your belief systems are no different than superstitions and I will continue to consider them as such until you can show me how they are different.

[domaster]

just ask ur self
how much belief exist out there in the word
& how much atheist exist out there in the word
Majority of Humans thay are Wrong & you and Few atheist you are Right & you see Right
* till now i never Hated a Person just for hes belief Or the contrary

[Thorne]

just ask ur self
how much belief exist out there in the word
& how much atheist exist out there in the word

Irrelevant. More relevant might be, how many believers out there have really examined their religion, and how many are simply carrying on what their parents taught them?

Majority of Humans thay are Wrong & you and Few atheist you are Right & you see Right

I don't claim that anyone is right or wrong. I only claim that believers have no evidence to support their position. The atheist position is the default: if there is no evidence for gods, there is no reason to postulate the existence of gods.

* till now i never Hated a Person just for hes belief Or the contrary

Till now? I hope that doesn't mean you're starting to hate me!

According to the Bible:
"Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:13)

And the Quran is just as adamant:
"Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant." (4:91)

Not something to make me feel warm and fuzzy about the tolerance of religion.

[domaster]

Till now? I hope that doesn't mean you're starting to hate me!

no im not
& 2)you dont have the right to read only half of Verses you must read it all or that will be impropriety
"Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.
" (4:91)
noooooooooo

(Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant). (4:91)

killd thos dont stop hurting u & Fighting you

and that mean Self-defense

[Thorne]

You're right. I wasn't aware that the verse I quoted was taken out of context. I apologize.

But doesn't the phrase, "If they keep not aloof from you..." imply that they cannot live amongst you? I can accept that "nor offer you peace nor hold their hands" would imply that they attack you, but not staying aloof doesn't seem to be the same thing.

And what of: "They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them" (4:89)

Does this not imply that you cannot be friendly to non-believers, and that you should kill them if they turn away from Allah?

[domaster]

thos Verses tallk to the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him And his companions
they Suffered A lot of by idolaters tortured and killed more then 10years
after that god give hem the right Self-defense

Does this not imply that you cannot be friendly to non-believers, and that you should kill them if they turn away from Allah?

is not truth
Incorrect
as long Muslims Protect , as their fellow Christians and Jews
And still living among them since the 14 century
they live as brothers
& i see a lots of Christians and Jews Defend ther fellow Muslims & islam

keep trying

[Thorne]

Yes, there are many people of all religions who would defend others against hatred and violence. There are many atheists who would do the same. As an atheist I do NOT attack religious people just because they are religious, I attack (verbally) the religions which they adhere to, because of the conflicts and irrationalities I see in them. Here in the US I can see the Christians mounting stronger and stronger attacks upon our government and education systems, trying to infiltrate their beliefs into everyday life for everyone. While professing tolerance they mount verbal and physical attacks against non-Christians and atheists. And I see little different when I look at Islam. Or Judaism. Or any other religious group. Each chooses to interpret their holy books in ways that suit them, to the detriment of others.

[thir]

Here in the US I can see the Christians mounting stronger and stronger attacks upon our government and education systems, trying to infiltrate their beliefs into everyday life for everyone.

Hasn't that slowed down some under Obama? I thought it was Bush feeding a lot of this.

While professing tolerance they mount verbal and physical attacks against non-Christians and atheists.

Well, the verbal ones are just freedom of speech.

[Thorne]

Well, the verbal ones are just freedom of speech.

Only if they are Christians. I'd love to see what a judge would say if it were Muslims saying those things which the Westboro clowns vomit out. Or atheists. Bet it wouldn't be a freedom of speech issue then.

[denuseri]

Hasn't that slowed down some under Obama? I thought it was Bush feeding a lot of this.

If anything its the other way around from what he is presenting from what Ive seen over here.



Well, the verbal ones are just freedom of speech.

Smh, I also havent seen any aethiests being attacked.

[domaster]

well you Say this over and over again
Trying to bring the differences, differentiating between religions

with Angry vindictive tone on religions

I hope only you are not Satan worshiped

[Thorne]

well you Say this over and over again
Trying to bring the differences, differentiating between religions

Well, every religion claims to represent the one true faith, the only path to God and Salvation. They can't all be right.

with Angry vindictive tone on religions

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings." - Victor Stenger
(Not intended as an attack just against Islam, but against all dogmatic religions.)

I hope only you are not Satan worshiped

LOL! Have no fear. The reasons for not believing in gods applies just as readily to devils.

[denuseri]

Not at all:... when you say you do not have a belief in "red" becuase you think there is no evidence for its existance it is in fact exactly the same as saying you do not believe that Red exists.

Green has nothing to do with it.

[Thorne]

Not at all:... when you say you do not have a belief in "red" becuase you think there is no evidence for its existance it is in fact exactly the same as saying you do not believe that Red exists.

Exactly my point! But saying that I do not believe that Red exists is NOT the same as saying I believe that red does NOT exist.

[domaster]

you know what i Hate most ...

When people talk about God as if they're talking about humans or animals or anything else creature created by god
This is a big mistake
that God
Nothing like it
And we can not resemble a creature to creator
This is because of the limited human intellect

Does not apply to God No time or place
Because time and space creatures created by God
So God does not get old
And it does not apply to Starter Beginning and the End
he was Not created by creator and not born dos not have Family
Has always been and will be
And God does not die

And because of our thought that limited with the nature of the universe we live in.!!!
And who are still trying to understand ... (universe )

Find us whenever we think of God
Intentionally or unintentionally we resemble his creatures with hem God

With respect to all
This is a fact Thought limited
One so we had the meeting
And collect our thoughts and beliefs in a peaceful manner
For a deeper understanding of the universe that we are a part

Just a note I wanted to share with you

[Thorne]

domaster,

You claim that we mortals are unable to understand God, our intellect to limited too comprehend his true nature. And then you go on to explain his true nature: God does not get old; He was not created by a creator; He was not born and does not have a family; God does not die!

And I ask you, once again, How do you KNOW? What evidence is there to support your claims about God's nature? Yes, you have faith, that I understand. But the only thing you have which tells you about God is the Quran, or the Bible if you are Christian, or the Torah if you are Jewish. And all of these documents were written by men! Men who had no more idea of what God is than you or I can have.

Oh, certainly, they claim their statements came directly from God. Who would believe them if they didn't? But if God revealed the Torah to the Israelites, and if God revealed the New Testament to the Christians, and if God revealed the Quran to Muhammad, why do they disagree so blatantly on the very nature of God? Why do they disagree so widely on what God expects us to do?

And if God is so far beyond our intellects, why does he have so many human failings? We "know" that God gets angry. We "know" that God gets jealous. These are HUMAN emotions, implying that God is more like us than you claim. We "know" that God kills innocent children. We "know" that God destroys entire cities. These actions don't make God so hard to understand after all. Why, it's almost as if God were a reflection of our own minds!

[domaster]

well I thought you do not believe in god

Are you from thois who say anything just to appear

& Do not compare the Quran Gospel

Gospel was written after more of 100 years after the lifting of Jesus Christ
Quran Books written by Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah Companions Memorizers in charge of it

[Thorne]

well I thought you do not believe in god

I don't. That's the point of my post. You are someone who can believe without proof. I require proof.

& Do not compare the Quran Gospel

Gospel was written after more of 100 years after the lifting of Jesus Christ
Quran Books written by Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah Companions Memorizers in charge of it

Yes, the New Testament was written long after the death of Jesus. By people who did not know him, by people who were not there.

The Quran was dictated to Muhammad by an angel, which only he could see or hear, of course. It was memorized by his Companions and written down later. Yeah, not much chance of transcription errors there, right?

But both of these are third person accounts of events which none of the writers witnessed and for which no one can provide any evidence.

The Quran is no more believable in its descriptions of God and his commands than the Bible, the Torah or the Book of Mormon. They are all filled with speculation, conjecture and wishful thinking, all wrapped up in religious dogma.

[denuseri]

Thanks for taking a comment I made personally to Thorne to highlight how he as an aethiest appeared to not be as tollerant in his arguments as he purposed all aethiests to be completely out of context Leo and turning around and insulting me to boot.

[domaster]

leo9
(((As for Islam, the Hadith says "He that changes his religion, he must be slain," and that is still the law in many Middle Eastern states)))
Are you serious leo9

I live in the Middle East
I have not seen and not heard in my life ever ever that someone be killd
For change religion
And very rarely hear about the Muslims who left Islam
maybe
Perhaps the poor and the needy have turned to Christianity for a living or Nationality

All the great efforts undertaken by the Church to eradicate Islam in the Middle East starting with Crusades
Trying to erase all traces of civilization and Islamic beliefs as they did with the Americas, North and South
do not forget Australia (in fact the whole world)

I do not blame and i do not urge or something
Islam forbids incitement and blaming the any one for his father, or grandfather mistac
Each individual is be judged for his actions

Other information, according to statistics lately erected
Islam is the religion most prevalent speed of all religions
People from all religions and beliefs and from different social positions convert to Islam every day

ps :
Please forgive me for my language its not so...
I have learned English from watching the movies & the chat rooms

[Thorne]

I have not seen and not heard in my life ever ever that someone be killd
For change religion
And very rarely hear about the Muslims who left Islam

Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda‎) is commonly defined in Islam as the rejection in word or deed of their former religion (apostasy) by a person who was previously a follower of Islam. Islamic scholarship differs on the earthly punishment for apostasy, ranging from death to no punishment at all.[1]
From a Wikipedia article:
"Many medieval Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence held that apostasy by a male Muslim is punishable by death, differing only on whether to execute the apostate immediately or grant the apostate an opportunity to repent and thus avoid penalty. They also differed on the punishment of a female apostate: death or imprisonment until repentance,[2] these judgements are still adopted by extremist Islamic Scholars today."

Those who face death or imprisonment for turning away from their religion are unlikely to do so.

[denuseri]

I would love a link explaining just what Xianity really is, all I could find was an obscure refernce on wikipedia to a fictious religion and some cross references that do not explain anything but say its some kind of new age slang for Chrisianity?

In any event I don't believe the topic of this thread is to discuss what aethism is or is not, nor to constantly refute what one believes about what someone's elses religion as being false for whatever reason or insult it's adhereants intelligence. People are going to believe what they wish anyways where as that is concerned.

I dont believe the main message of Hinduism, Judism, Buddism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai or Wicca is one of anything other than to love one another and help each other, to live together in peace and harmony. Yes its true that in the past and even today their are people who do bad things in the name of their religion and I am all for getting people to stop doing such things, to be tollerent of one another beliefs. Some like aethiests may feel like they don't need to have faith in an outside force to help them in that endeavor and thats perfectly fine. But they shouldn't be fundamentally insistant on that which they cannot prove eaither or going on some kind of rampage to see all religion abolished.

Since no one can prove themselves right on any of it, doesnt it make more sence to just let people believe what they wish and punnish actions instead of ideas?

All I am asking is why can't we all stop nitpicking about the specifics as we move into the future?

Focus on common ground as opposed to making things worse by fostering divisions?

[thir]

Focus on common ground as opposed to making things worse by fostering divisions?[/QUOTE]

Yes - we simply have to.

[thir]

Just got to Tantric's post. Sorry, you are right.

[domaster]

Wikipedia ::::: Is not an Islamic reference

And I think when you want to inquire and understand something, ask specialists in this thing
Whatever...

Apostasy is not only limited or restricted or confined to islam
As long as the sanctions down on the piece of apostasy to how known its not come with islam its old as old as the humanbeing on earth

The prophets and their fellows and they do the apostasy punishment as policy deterrent

The prophets unto their fellows, and they do a policy deterrent

Otherwise, many people will followed their whims and whims of the devil
& that happen lots
And do not forget sanctions revealed by God to the apostates
And their stories are known in Valangel Altorat and Alzabor and the Koran

And if you want to Learn & be gauged from something ask the people of it.

[Thorne]

domaster, it sounds as though you are saying that we can only trust Islam to be truthful about Islam.

Very well, let's try these!
"We are ex-Muslims. Some of us were born and raised in Islam and some of us had converted to Islam at some moment in our lives. We were taught never to question the truth of Islam and to believe in Allah and his messenger with blind faith. We were told that Allah would forgive all sins but the sin of disbelief (Quran 4:48 and 4:116). But we committed the ultimate sin of thinking and questioned the belief that was imposed on us and we came to realize that far from being a religion of truth, Islam is a hoax, it is hallucination of a sick mind and nothing but lies and deceits."

Or we could look here:
"Dear Apostates, If you have left Islam and do not want your information listed here, please understand that its very important for apostates to form a group. Nothing agitates a Muslim, as much as seeing a group of people who have left Islam. This is why Mohammed ordered to kill us! He knew we know the truth about Islam, and we would be the ones who could make the lies he was selling to people fall down to the floor like an imaginary sand castle." [Emphasis mine.]

And these are former Muslims, remember. They have intimate knowledge of Islam.

I would point out that Islam is not alone in proscribing its followers from thinking for themselves. Many religions do the same. It seems to be one of the prime tenets of religion: belief trumps rational thought. This is the antithesis of science, which values rational thought above everything.

That does not mean one cannot have faith and be a scientist. Far from it. There have been, and are, many scientists who believe in one god or another. Faith is a personal journey. Religion, especially dogmatic religion, tries to force that journey along specific roads, mapping out the destination and way-points along the road, and anything which contradicts or negates that dogma is pushed to the edges of the map and marked, "Here there be Dragons!"

[domaster]

as i said
And I think when you want to inquire and understand something, ask specialists of this thing

& u keep reading & asking thos how hait religion
What you offering here is not a reference

& its not fair to do that for any...thing ...
if ur fair ask both sides

not evry one left Islam or any other religion its big mind or big Mind thinker there is how thay can not leave there old life even for god

well if ur fair see that 111111111 2222222

& u must read the 2sc link

one last thing stop talking about humanbeing as they are perfect & so smart


now let's talk about religion
religion

For as long as that religions was the law

The system of civilized communities
For as long as the brake to the whims of animal
And criminal instincts
And according to my vision of the subject -Islam built the one of the most beautiful civilization and more sophisticated
We're still reaping some of the fruit till to day
Civilization edited by contemporary science of the darkness of ignorance, witchcraft and sorcery

First words of God revealed in the Koran
"READ"
And as long as the Messenger of Allah, Mohammad urged us on science and learning share it with others

They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.
(33) It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.
(33-32 versses 9 chapter)
in this versses god talk about thos who belive in god but they keep Denying for a reason or nother

[Thorne]

as i said
And I think when you want to inquire and understand something, ask specialists of this thing

I agree. And who better to ask about Islam and apostasy, for example, then those who have left Islam?

& u keep reading & asking thos how hait religion
What you offering here is not a reference

Are you trying to say that those who hate religion cannot be experts in it? Even when most of them were raised in religious homes, and steeped in religion for years? So by your standards, the only one's I can ask about the evils of religion are those religious "experts" who don't believe that religion is evil. Strange restriction. It's like telling me I can't ask astronomers about the stars, but can only trust the astrologers.

if ur fair ask both sides

I have seen both sides. And I have chosen my side.

& u must read the 2sc link

The first link seems to say that Einstein did NOT believe in God, at least in the God of Christianity, Islam or Judaism. Not sure what you're trying to say about that.
The second link I've seen before, and it's a hoax. Read the Snopes expose written almost 4 years ago.

one last thing stop talking about humanbeing as they are perfect & so smart

LOL! I've never claimed that. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I'm not interested in trading quotes from the Quran, or the Bible, with you. I'll admit that your knowledge of the Quran is far greater than mine. That does nothing to prove that anything in the book is true, however. Show me evidence which does not originate in a religious book. Give me examples of the extensive testing which has been done to prove that the Quran, or the Bible, is the inerrant word of God. And, since there are many contradictions between them, show me evidence that your word of God is truer than their word of God.

[domaster]

I agree. And who better to ask about Islam and apostasy, for example, then those who have left Islam?

I have seen both sides. And I have chosen my side.

I'm not interested in trading quotes from the Quran, or the Bible, with you. I'll admit that your knowledge of the Quran is far greater than mine. That does nothing to prove that anything in the book is true, however. Show me evidence which does not originate in a religious book. Give me examples of the extensive testing which has been done to prove that the Quran, or the Bible, is the inerrant word of God. And, since there are many contradictions between them, show me evidence that your word of God is truer than their word of God.

I dare you to ask who spent his life in the service of Islam
if you're looking for evidence ask the Scientists Religion

there it is , you have said u take you (side)
This explains a lot of things
Why you are here not by chance
i think This is your job
I am not prepared to prove anything to those who came previously closed mind
And fight against the entire purpose of religion and not a discussion

The contradiction existing between the Books
Does not come from God, but from humans
All the prophets who were sent by God
Sent them to spread one message starting from Adam, to the last Prophets Muhammad peace be upon him

God did not send a prophet
Until the people distort and change the god words of and the provisions

That came to Muhammad peace be upon him
The last prophet sent to all people

The contradiction existing Books
Does not come from God, but we humans came from
All the prophets who were sent by God
Sent them to spread one message starting from Adam, but Seal of the Prophets Muhammad peace be upon him

And God has sent a provisions Special to evry Nation
Dedicated to them according to their ideology or their time
Until came Muhammad peace be upon him The last prophet he was sent to all people
with perfect book for evryone & evryage