Steelish - To be able-bodied, yet choose to do nothing to contribute to society and instead to live off the efforts of your fellow man is WRONG.
Personally I believe that although they may be able bodied they are not able minded. You appear to lay all the blame at their door. Yes they must share the blame but in my view so must society. Perhaps I have got this wrong but you seemed to be suggesting welfare should be stopped which would in effect cut of their only means of survival (ie food shelter etc not tv sets). This seems harsh in the extreme to me and I think would not save the taxpayer when they all end up in jail.

I would like to analyze * winks at Duncan * what went wrong because clearly something has. And address that problem. Yes its not easy to fix - but at least we should be trying. The USA can land a man on the moon and a missile on a dime the other side of the world. I think the problem of poverty and employment can be solved.

Duncan - Everything can be analyzed! You have said so yourself in other posts
Correct - but suggesting I analyse a proverb is for me not relevant to a serious discussion on equality and equal opportunit

Neither I nor Steelish are capable of being so cavalier with our values and principles as you seem to think people are capable. Those are an ingrained part of all of us.y.
Steelish no work no reward views are the result of her parents teachings. Your similar view is based on what you had to do to get to college. My views are based on the output of my education ie my schooling. Both your views are based on what you had to do to get your education.

Yes! It is the same!
Then when I pointed out to steelish that kids do work - they do homework - you agree with me.

I have some small concerns of the input of government
In the UK the national government exercises little control over education other than what is in law (eg every day shall start with an act of worship). Control is linked to funding. So a private school will be self funded and controlled. State schools are run and funded by local government who share control with the school itself. I think it fair control and funding are loosely linked. I appreciate the USA is probably different but I am not talking about how it is as much as how I think it ought to be in both UK, USA.

See in this we largely agree! I would defy you to find anyone who would not. The argument arises in execution.
My point was I believe education should be free and paid for by government (local/national) with help from industry and elsewhere. Students should be able to go as far as their ability not pocket allows. I accept we cannot afford it but nevertheless it is the goal I would strive for and direction I would aim for.

Other issues - teacher unions etc - are other matters. As I said before, if governments were efficient they mostly probably could offer better education and health without extra burden to taxpayer. Problem is they are not.

With 31 million companies in the US employing over 500 people determining such a data set is a large task
I dont think we need to survey all 31 million. There are ways to get stats with sampling. For the poverty stats quoted they didn't run around homes counting TV sets did they. Please - it is possible to get stats and ballpark estimates.

1900 or now it is not the knowledge that makes success.
The more complex the product, market and business environment the more complex the skill set needed to be successful.

This is why when a discussion of any of the "poor", "middle class", or "rich" come up I need a definition.
It must be possible to work out the minimum needed to support a healthy life. Food, shelter, hygene etc. I am pretty sure it's not that hard to work out. This for me is subsistance level and that is a minimum a government must provide.

Sounds like a cop out to me!!
Correct, it is! I do not want to comment on her personal backgound because that is not the topic and because I do not want her to be offended, which she undoubtably would be.