Gott Mit Uns: Open Letter to Atheists and Theists

[Matin]

[B]

disclaimer: I am Unitarian Universalist and my IQ is 154.

hooray UU! me too, and my iq tests between 130 + 150, depending on what i had for breakfast and what planet is ruling my sign that week lmao

is the argument and the objection here against fundamentalism, and not truly against faith? it's in fundamentalism that one finds intolerance, not necesarily in faith...

ok, i grant you, faith to those who don't share it is illogical by it's nature, and as a mechanic and child of medical professionals (scientists and left-brainers) i am much more comfortable dealing with matters i can measure and quantify.

that doesn't in any way diminish my faith, however, although it does periodically cause me to question it's validity. but that's the scientist in me, and i eventually emerge from that with my faith as strong as ever.

as a pagan amongst catholics i will vouch for their openminded tolerance towards what must be very alien and strange beliefs... it's when they get all inflamed by some radical that they become closed minded, but that applies to a much larger segment of the populace than just people of faith - if an atheistic democrat or republican tears my head off for badmouthing their favorite politico, isn't that the same basic impulse, just expressed differently? faith in the hands of the sane can do good in the world, or at least harm it very little, so i feel that the focus ought not to be to convince believers of the fallacy of belief, but to bring them to know that tolerance and faith can and do coexist. and reason!

i rambled...lol

[Thorne]

is the argument and the objection here against fundamentalism, and not truly against faith? it's in fundamentalism that one finds intolerance, not necesarily in faith...

That's my point of view, at least. I don't proclaim myself to be an atheist or a Christian or any other particular type. When pressed I respond with, "I'm an apathetic agnostic: I don't know if God exists, and I don't give a damn."

However, I do have faith. Not in some supernatural, intangible, supposedly omniscient being as described in the religious texts. But in science, or more precisely, the scientific process. (Not to be confused with scientists, who are mere mortals like the rest of us and subject to the same capacity for greed and subterfuge as anyone else.) The scientific process, when properly applied, helps to advance our knowledge of the universe, and tells us how we came to be, what processes conspired to bring about the results we see before us.

The thing we have to remember is that all formalized religions evolve with one basic premise in mind: we know the only truth; all others are heretics. We tend to forget that those who propagate that religion are mere mortals, just as we are. Any pronouncements they make are no more than their own opinions and interpretations of scripture, not the definitive word of God.

So, if you want to believe that God created us, and set us on this world to worship him, you have that right. And if I want to believe that all of humanity, and all of the creatures on this world, are mere accidents of nature, well I have that right, too.

As to why we are here? I don't know and I don't give a damn!

[craven]

"That's my point of view, at least. I don't proclaim myself to be an atheist or a Christian or any other particular type. When pressed I respond with, "I'm an apathetic agnostic: I don't know if God exists, and I don't give a damn." posted by thorne

well said thorne, and i liked your last post also, whether one believes or not, lets be frank about it there is a need for tolerance and understanding, from both sides of the debate, i respect others views as long as they try and respect mine.

I dont expect them to agree with my opinions or even fully understand them, just show me some respect for them, that is all i ask, irrespective of whether this debate is "proven" or "won" by one side or the other, all that is needed to maintain a peaceful coexistence is understanding and respect.

if someone believes in god then so be it, in whatever form or sect that their god chooses to manifest itself, what ever works for that individual, i am not going to knock or pre judge, just as i dont expect to be myself.

lets move away from picking holes in either sides facts and learn to accept and coexist.

the more positions become polarized the greater the danger there is of alienation, we need to be an inclusive society tolerant of all views if we are to live side by side, too often historically we have seen what can happen when parts of society are marginalized or demonized.

we cant let history repeat itself.

i like your stance and approach to this one thorne

[TheShadow.]

ok, i grant you, faith to those who don't share it is illogical by it's nature, and as a mechanic and child of medical professionals (scientists and left-brainers) i am much more comfortable dealing with matters i can measure and quantify.

And it doesn't help when idiots of any stripe try to say that faith is believing in something without any evidence. I cannot believe in something without evidence, yet what I accept as evidence may not be acceptable to others.

Let us take something almost everyone believes in and most people do it without evidence, atoms. How many people have seen an atom, or really know what to look for to prove they exist? Yet these same people who try to call me stupid for believing in a God because I have had evidence of his existence that makes his existence the least objectionable alternative blindly believe in atoms simply because they were taught that they exist.

This is why I always chuckle when an atiest procalims himself smarter or more skeptical than I am. I accept that some people score higher on IQ tests than I, but as a member of Mensa I also know that the smartest people usually end up driving trucks. (At least the 3 smartest people I ever met do so.)

Most people consider themselves skeptics because they are willing to challenge a couple of things they think are big issues. Skeptics never believe anything, and sometimes we don't even trust ourselves.

[Thorne]

Let us take something almost everyone believes in and most people do it without evidence, atoms. How many people have seen an atom, or really know what to look for to prove they exist? Yet these same people who try to call me stupid for believing in a God because I have had evidence of his existence that makes his existence the least objectionable alternative blindly believe in atoms simply because they were taught that they exist.

You don't have to be able to see something to know it exists. You can't see oxygen, but just try living without it. The atom has been proven to exist, through many detailed, and repeatable, scientific experiments. We know from experimentation that, if you combine certain atoms under certain conditions you will get the same result every time.

I've heard people who claim that something which seemed miraculous to them proves the existence of God. For example, someone surviving an accident which, by all rights, should have killed them. But there are far too many accidents in which someone who should have survived doesn't. Why didn't God intervene there?

I've heard people who claim that God must have created the world because it's just too complex to have developed on its own. Yet when confronted with the all too frequent breakdowns of those complex systems, something an infallible God should have been able to avoid, they place the blame on Satan. Why is it that anything bad that happens has to be Satan's fault, and not God's?

No, I'm afraid that we can never prove that God exists until the time that he stands in front of the world and proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that he does. But by the same token, we can never prove that he does not exist, either. It is, and always will be, a matter of faith.