Removing underage stories

[Tiger]

Hello, everyone,

The issue of removing underage stories has been raised several times and I got numerous email complaints about them. Along with the recent news about the Red Rose Stories sites (see this thread), I think it's time to do something about it.

I understand that one of the reasons that you visit BDSMlibrary probably is the liberty on the story content and the support to the freedom of speech. But when Uncle Sam is taking action on his new anti-porn policy, it's time for us to do something protecting this site for the benefit of majority of the readers. I believe none of us would like to see this site ends up like the other one.

The decision of removing all stories with underage characters is giving them one less reason to take down this site. I would like to get your support on this decision. Thank you very much.

The actions will be taken:

All stories that have underage (younger than 18 year old) characters involved in sexual scene (either participating or spectating) will be removed!

1. Starting next week, notify the authors about the removal of his/her story with story code "Young" from this site. The stories will be removed from public view until the author submits the cleaned version to replace the old one.

2. One week later, all stories that have story code "Young" (and no cleaned version submitted) will be removed and the story code "Young" will be removed too.

3. Authors can send their updated story any time to bring it back online along with all the previous reader's reviews.

4. A reader report system will be setup so that any future or existing underage stories can be identified quickly.

With the help of all you readers and writers, together we can make this site better and keep it running longer.


Jinn
webmaster

[Eden's Girl]

I'm not at all unhappy about this change.

[redEva]

While I can not say I am happy about the change, I do support any actions You deem necessary to protect this site and to ensure that there is no problems that would result in shutting down the site.

I do not have enough information on the Red Rose case, but apparently it is not only stories that caused its downfall. While I do understand your standpoint, I am not at all happy that the fantasy is being censored. After all it is only written word and no-one has been harmed in a process.

[Blue_Monday]

I think it's always sad to see censorship get a foothold. This affects all of us, even those who don't like underage stories. First it's underage, next it will be violence, and there are some who would like to see pornography go away altogether.

Best of luck to Those In Charge of the site. It's probably a wise decision to back away from the edge just a little; being shut down completely would really be awful. I hope that someday there is a place, real or virtual, where people can be free to express all of their fantasies without causing anyone harm.

[slavecat]

what a shame..there goes half of my favorites folder...where will it end?
well you do what you have to do in order to keep the site running.

[drayman]

I wholeheartedly agree with this decision. It is best to be pro-active in a situation like this and, whilst it does seem to be censorship, it will hopefully safeguard the site and the individuals.

Sadly, it seems that the politicians are at it again, 'We always know best' is a phrase that comes to mind.

We in UK have sufferred this for years, a mad man goes beserk with a shotgun, so the 'wise' politicians decide to ban all hand guns, even those registered with gun clubs. Result, we are unable to allow people to train to shoot at the the Olympics.

The 'War on Terror' seems more a way to control people's lives even more and as for Political correctness, when an elderly lady was hit by a hit and run driver recently and described the driver as a fat male, she was warned by Greater Manchester Police that this was offensive language and could not be included in the description.

The inmates are certainly taking over the asylum!!!!!

[DungeonMaster6]

CourierNew

I wholeheartedly agree with this decision. It is best to be pro-active in a situation like this and, whilst it does seem to be censorship, it will hopefully safeguard the site and the individuals.

Sadly, it seems that the politicians are at it again, 'We always know best' is a phrase that comes to mind.

We in UK have sufferred this for years, a mad man goes beserk with a shotgun, so the 'wise' politicians decide to ban all hand guns, even those registered with gun clubs. Result, we are unable to allow people to train to shoot at the the Olympics.

The 'War on Terror' seems more a way to control people's lives even more and as for Political correctness, when an elderly lady was hit by a hit and run driver recently and described the driver as a fat male, she was warned by Greater Manchester Police that this was offensive language and could not be included in the description.

The inmates are certainly taking over the asylum!!!!!

[DungeonMaster6]

CourierNew

While I don't condone censorship, there must be a line drawn when it comes to underage stories. I will neither write nor read any story that contains material that has a person less than eighteen involved. Child pornography is abhorrent and in my mind BDSM is an adult activity.

As far as handguns are concerned, some of our "wise" politicians are going overboard. Anybody has the right to defend himself from break-ins and if you ban all handguns, the only folks that will have guns will be the crooks. Don't get me wrong, guns in the wrong hands are dangerous, but that doesn't mean everybody should turn-in their pistols. That's like saying we should ban automobiles or airplanes because of unfortunate accidents and crashes.

[Escritor]

Although I'm not a fan of underage stories and wouldn't mind see them go away, I do feel liberty of expression is important and that is why I would have liked Jinn had another option to take in order to keep the site running.

However, I support the actions he's going to take, so that we can keep reading quality BDSM stories, at least those that have no underage characters in them.

Wise decision, Jinn!

[Mobius]

Jinn sadly this action is not going to be enough. The "red rose site" Was closed for violating obsinity laws. It was sited that it had content of not only children in sexual content but also content of scat beastyality and bdsm content. If you are going to censer the content for the children in sexual content then you are also going to have to censer the other content also. Threre is not going to be any thing left. all that would be left will be harlington romance novels.

The obsinity laws vary depending on were your server is based. I just plain sucks and not in a good way. only 18 months until the elections. Maybe the election of hilery will fix things

Moby

[Katmandu]

I have to agree with Moby on this, Jinn.
While we are all scared of the repurcussions of having to deal with a "holier than thou" political administration that puts pornography within the top-5-crimes-in-the-USA styled FBI, we must stand up for our rights to at least discuss these and ALL topics that suit our intellectual needs, over the Internet!!

As such, I must admit ignorance as to the possible legal repurcussions of anyone running this site, but I, for 1, vote for the concept of:

"Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!!"

[karisma]

Perhaps we(you) could go around the problem and simply host the content on a server in maybe, let's say Europe? It's worked before with other types of content.

[Carnivale Ed]

At the risk of using the Alanis Morissette definition of irony, how's this for unlucky. I find this site for the first time a couple of weeks ago, think it's great, and consider sending some of my own stuff in for consideration. I write a whole new story just for the occasion and, of course, for the first time ever, I choose to feature an underage protagonist. Then I read this thread. Mum always said I was born under a bad sign. Timing, it seems, in comedy and BDSM, is everything.

That said, you gotta do what you gotta do. Introducing the comics code in the fifties helped the comic book industry head off the introduction of even more stringent government regulation, so I guess it's a smart move, but does anybody really think that it will help in this case? If they come after you, they're going to get you, underage stories or no.

I can always re-write my story, but it's a shame that I have to. I don't know what your circumstances are, Jinn, but for my two cents, fight the power, man!

[daddiebear50]

Though I question the 1st amemdment rights of the current attempts at censorship, and that this type of content will just move overseas, I'm not sure that I am sorry to see this content go. I will admit to having read some good ones, and some bad. And also why, and if it was acceptable even to myself.

Also, though I think Bush has been zealous in his efforts on this front, like the theory that he is resonsible for 9/11 when Clinton is the one who tried to shove a tomahawk up Bin Laudins ass (and missed dammit), this was started, or at least greatly advanced in the previous administration(s). Don't turn this into the political debate some are emphatic to make it. For the record, all of us Reps and Dems, need to open our eyes, understand, give a little, and elect better people. Good people are not one sided. be they polititians, or voters. And McCain/Edwards in 2008. We need the unification. I had a tough time putting one on top, but think 8yr rep 8yrs dem. Edward would get the aging I think hurt him. Not bad.

Let's be realisitic. The net has been out of control for quite some time. And as is oft said (and happenes) when it swings back, it swings back just as far or farther. I think that is probably a truer scenario than that this is just a politically motivated event. (yes politics is the tool, but not the cause)

Also, one must only look at the nightly news, to see how the need for some sort of control is necessary. There is almost a daily occurance of missing (and eventually dead) females, far too many of them are kids. If perchance this action stopped even one of these pyscos, I think most of us would gladly accept the loss of entertainment to ourselves. But..... you say. And I say, hell lets try it.

And as for the nightly news. You think Bush is pushing his agenda, try watching the 24 hour news stations. Bush is an ametuer, and they have 100 times the influence of any politician. (And they try to prove it regularly. Look at our polls, look at our feedback) They overplay any topic they like to further their ideals, and slick it up to make it tasty to the public. You don't think that they have a little to do with the outcry.

For the record, the censorship is coming on many fronts. Aol closed access to newsgroups (all) in Feb 2005, and Yahoo deleted our local munch group entirely (include all content of the listed moderators, financial, unrelated code, and personal, even their user name entirely) in May 2005. It violated their TOS by using the term BDSM, and member photos (they never specified only refered to the TOS). It's back, but BDSM is a non approved term and it is restricted in content. There are now more pics of 'pussies' than there are of human females (clothed only). A subtle protest?

So we have to endure. The good times are always followed by the bad times and vice versa. The problem here, is that I think we are getting both at the same time. We just don't like it, and want our cake and eat it to.

Just my humble opinion, add salsa to taste.
Db

[Masters_lilone]

i agree with the decision to remove the under age stories for two reasons...the first one being that underage kids have no buiness being portraed in any aspects of our lifestyle.. the second is becauseof the fact that most people thing negitively about our lifestyle so it is up to those of us
who live the lifestyle to set a positive example of how the lifestyle really is even if that example is threw our writing.... i know a little about thr red rose case and in away that site deserved to be shut down due to the underaged stuff on it ... but the goverment has no right to try to shut down sites that have to do with BDSM or any of the activities associated with the lifestyle....i feel as if as long as the people involved in the avctivity consent to it the goverment should but out

this is my two cents worth on this topic

[breakme]

For the protection of the site, this was a good move. Whether or not you agree that stories involving children are right or wrong, having them on this site presented a clear and present danger to all of us. I am not a fan of those stories for many reasons, but I would just choose not to read them. However, by having them available I think made the site liable to the powers that be in the current political climate.

If the anti-obscenity issue spreads to our world of BDSM between adults, i think it would be important for all of us to stand up and do something about it. Whether its donating money to the EFF or other first amendment law groups, writing politicians at the local and federal level, or in some way fighting back. I do not believe the government is going after BDSM in general, but rather the underage type of porn. While scat pictures and videos have almost always run afoul ofthe obscenity laws, I am not sure whether or not the Feds would go after a story site (and by that I mean one that is strictly stories and not picture trading as was apparently the case in Red Rose).

just my $0.02

[slave ruthie]

umm if Jinn Sir has to take steps to protect His site and His liberty by restricting what's available then it must be done! and if my stories are putting the Library at risk i'll try to amend them and remove any offending bits...

...what worries me very much, though, is that all these restrictions in the name of decency and morality are not backed up by evidence of increasing violent sexual crime. there's no clear figures to show that the number of murders, assaults or rapes has actually gone up because of the portrayal of violence or pornography in the media (including the Internet) and to suggest that the world was a safer and more law-abiding place in the past before the images and material was so available is simply rubbish. in fact there have been studies that show there's been no increase at all (please look at http://libertus.net/censor/studies2.html for more information)

whatever happened to Voltaire's famous declaration of “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”? i thought tolerance was supposed to be a mark of a civilized society where freedom of expression and thought was valued. i think we're living in very sinister times now where, under the mask of "protecting" us, our governments are increasingly acting as "predators" on their own peoples. in the UK, sites like this are likely to become illegal due to proposed laws on "violent pornography" despite there being no proof that our society will become a safer, more law-abiding place. i might not be able to read, let alone upload my stories on this wonderful site without being branded a criminal! i've also watched with dismay the morality witch-hunts that have begun to destroy the BDSM on-line community in the USA (Insex being a good example) under the guise of protecting public decency and vulnerable people. i'm sorry but i think the British and American governments in particular risk deteriorating into dangerous, un-democratic, out-of-control Dominant bullies and are fast losing any credibility in claiming the moral high ground

after all, you can't pass laws to stop people thinking or dreaming about things that are "bad" - and its extremely naive to think that rape, murder, violence and abuse are going to decrease just because we can't see images or read about them. in my experience the people who shout loudest about morality and decency are secretly obsessed with the same "perversions" they decry - just look at the number of politicians, policemen, judges, and religious leaders who are found out enjoying the same things we do! one of the motives behind my storywriting efforts with the Organization Series is to portray the sheer hypocrisy of people in power hiding their BDSM urges from public view - i really think its right that BDSM is the "last taboo" and we are being singled out by the moral crusaders as "the enemy" when the truth is that these desires are in ALL of us and don't mean that we are actively violent, destructive psychopaths LOL

okies, i'm going to shut up now - my Beloved Master says "that's enough and you've made your point, slave" so umm that's...umm...it!

[mind_imperator]

I, too, wholly support Jinn's decision to remove stories involving underage sex.

But.....

although I have no personal interest in stories involving underage participants, my view on this is that the only person who can claim to support free speech is he who permits his own worst enemies to freely say whatever foul and abhorrent thoughts come into their minds. This is difficult to bear when one hears Neonazis and the like propagating their dangerous misconceptions. However, i do defend their right to say what they think.
Freedom of thought, yes, but of action, no, which is why making pornographic pictures of underage subjects is rightly a criminal activity.

[H Dean]

It is regretful that such worries plague sites such as this. While I find stories including minors to be distasteful, at best, I believe that writing such tales is a healthy outlet for such fantasies. At least, it is far better than living out such fantasies. Something I think we would all agree on.

There is an ebb and flow with any situation such as this. Eventually the pendulum will swing back the other way. Unfortunately, when the pendulum strikes and if one does not have the proper backing one cannot take government censorship to a level where one can make a difference. The financial requirements for a proper defense are truly a tragic part of our legal system.

I would suggest, Jinn, that you bring your site to the eyes of the ACLU. While I am not a fan of the ACLU, due to their failure to honestly live up to their name, they can be of help should this site fall under the watchful eyes of the government. And, at the least, should the government attempt action, you might have recourse or the means to fight back should the ACLU have an eye open.

MY support for any necessary changes goes out to you, Jinn. I disagree with the actions taken by our government but I agree with the necessity you feel for removing certain content. Do as you feel necessary.

[leo9]

This is what Hitler called the "salami strategy". If you try to take the whole salami, people will fight. But they won't fight for one slice... or the next slice... or the next slice...

So you've given away one slice. What will be the next one? Snuff, probably, and then major mutilation. Then torture and heavy beating, and then what? Gay sex? Sex of any kind? Bondage?

Five years ago when Yahoo started making trouble for BDSM groups, I moved my group to a host in Denmark. This site could do the same if you really cared about your freedom. But it's easier to give in just this once... and the next time... and the next time...

If it matters, I personally don't like to read either underage or snuff stories. But I absolutely defend other people's right to read them if they choose.

[Master479]

I thought the Supreme Court had ruled on this several years ago, and stories about underage sex are protected under the First Admendment. Pictures, etc., are not protected.

Not that I like the underage stories - I don't mind them being taken off the site - but they should not have to be. I have not been to the other site that started this, but if they mixed anything with the stories, that is probably the problem.

[Chuckdom19]

I have to agree with Moby on this, Jinn.
While we are all scared of the repurcussions of having to deal with a "holier than thou" political administration that puts pornography within the top-5-crimes-in-the-USA styled FBI, we must stand up for our rights to at least discuss these and ALL topics that suit our intellectual needs, over the Internet!!

As such, I must admit ignorance as to the possible legal repurcussions of anyone running this site, but I, for 1, vote for the concept of:

"Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!!"

Hear, hear!! I could not agree more strongly. Where does it end?

[BDSM_Tourguide]

You know what? Fuck it. I like the young code. I'll come out and admit it. I like writing stories about younger teens getting their asses handed to them (sometimes literally) on a platter. I like reading stories about the high school bitch getting what's coming to her. I like the young code, period.

Granted, I DO NOT like to read stories involving 6 year olds or eleven year olds, etc. But I see nothing wrong with stories involving 16 year olds, or even 14 year olds. Hey Jinn, host your site in Canada where the legal age is 14. Fuck the archaic American government.

And while I find child porn to be an intolerable crime, I could give a shit less what people write about "children" in stories. Why? Because they don't fucking EXIST! They're all figments of the authors' imaginations! No ACTUAL person is being harmed. No ACTUAL child is being abused. So fucking what?

If the young code is removed, then the nc, mc, snuff, incest and extreme codes might just as well be removed, too. They're all just as "indecent" under the unconstitutional laws being enforced by federal, state and local law enforcement across the US today. What makes any of you think this site is any less likely to get shut down for depicting stories of rape, murder and gory disembowelings than it is for stories containing "underage" characters?

If anybody wants me, I'll be posting my stories on a UK BDSM server where people will be able to read them.

[Alex Bragi]

Let's quit pussy footing around here, ok? Many of the stories posted at that site were to satisfy the perverted fantasies of infantophiles, that's my understanding of the issue.

You can veil it with all kinds of terminology, young, under age, etc.. but it's much more than that, and it is what it is.

[Carnivale Ed]

Let's quit pussy footing around here, ok? Many of the stories posted at that site were to satisfy the perverted fantasies of infantophiles, that's my understanding of the issue.

You can veil it with all kinds of terminology, young, under age, etc.. but it's much more than that, and it is what it is.

Given the subject matter, I'm not really sure I want to wade any further into this debate, but I feel compelled to, because I'm not sure it is actually as simple as you would make it, Alex.

The point's been well made above, but it bears repeating. We're talking about fiction. No child is actually being harmed here. That distiction, to me, is everything. This is, ostensibly, a site for writers of the particular genre broadly defined as BDSM, and the people who enjoy reading such. A section of that audience may, indeed, be 'infantophiles' as you claim, but to characterise them as 'perverted' is almost meaningless in this arena, given all of the other taboo subjects featured on the story site. They can all be interpreted as perverted, it just depends on who's doing the interpreting. As long as no real children are involved, a person's particular fetish is none of my business.

I guess my point is this - I've spent my life reading everything I can. In my mind, I've been to Roissy with O, to NY with Holden, and to the depths of Hell with Dante. I just find it sad that now there's a place I can't go, no matter how distasteful I might have found the trip.

'It is what it is?' It's a limit on my imagination, that's what it is, the one thing that should have no limits.

Hope I haven't offended.

I'm up to four cents, now, I think.

CE

[Woodchuck]

I was actually wondering why bother removing it all when everything on here is fiction anyway.

I remember reading books about underage people "hooking up" when I was in Jr High. I don't think we should be worried just because of the medium we are using. What we should be doing is preparing to help aid those who will be subject to unjust restriction.

[Alex Bragi]

Hi Ed,

How's thing on the other side of the island?

No, you haven't offended me in the least—I like to hear other people's ideas and thoughts. I'm broad-minded kind of lady, however, on this particular subject, I have to tell you, I'm the proverbial cyclops and I won't bend.

Certainly, I understand what you saying here, but I simply can't agree with it and my reasons are well documented at this site on other threads.

I would like to draw your attention to the notorious case of Fred and Rosemary West. In an article I read recently, one of their daughters is quoted as saying she refused to talk about the details of her abuse, not so much because of the mental anguish it causes her but, because she "doesn't want to give ideas to other perverts…" I think that pretty much sums up why I refuse condone kiddy porn—in any form.

[Carnivale Ed]

Hi Alex,

Things are wet on the this side of the island, but then, aren't they always?

Your point is well taken. I suppose I'm just wondering what we'd be missing out on if zero tolerance of certain subject matter had always applied to works of fiction - Lolita, 120 Days of Sodom, Romeo & Juliet? I may be giving, to some of the stories on the site, more credit than they deserve, but, in their own way, they're still works of art. They can still teach us something about ourselves, if only because they are so socially repugnant.

Example : Before coming here, I don't think I'd read a BDSM story featuring minors. Never occurred to me that I should. But I've now read 'Brotherly Love', a tale of incest and slavery between two eleven year old twins, and have been awed by it. There's romance and tenderness in this story that, given what it's about, I would never have believed possible. Something ugly has been made beautiful, if only in my mind. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think this tale is even remotely plausible. It's just that, for me, the literary eye-opening it gave me trumps any disgust at the actual events portrayed.

Given the nature of this site, it just seems ridiculously arbitrary to draw a line in the sand and say, "Here, but no further." The only rationale I can see for doing so, is for the reason it has been done here. To avert political interference of a perceived wrongdoing. Then, at least, the censorship serves a purpose beyond the maintenance of a morality that, while appropriate in the real world, has no relevance in fiction.

And, as for giving perverts ideas, I'm not convinced they need any. Entertainment, whether literary, visual or auditory, can only add details to somebody's sick desire, not create the desire in the first place. It's like blaming 'The Matrix' for Columbine because they wore long, dark coats. Specious reasoning.

All that said, though, I completely respect your opinion. I just think the potential of what we're giving up might be of far greater value than what we think we're gaining.

Agree to disagree?

Up to six cents, now. This is getting expensive.

Carnivale Ed, never in his life believing he'd, one day, be defending 'kiddie porn.'

[jj_frap]

The only thing enemies of freedom understand is the barrel of a gun.

I don't give a fuck of its Beijing, Moscow, Washington, repressive multinationals, or religious wackos: The only thing they use is violence, and we're not going to win the battle against our fascist, Stalinist, and theocratic enemies by playing nice with them.

[daddiebear50]

JJ frap;

Study history. Non violence has always, (at least in recent history) been more effective than violence. (Dr ML King was the epitomy of this and look what he accomplished, and an offered scenario in Claney's Ryan series (do't remember which one) sugggested a time when the Palistinian figured it out ala a Kent State affair (guess they don't read Clancey) is great food for thought.