Removing underage stories

[karisma]

Perhaps we(you) could go around the problem and simply host the content on a server in maybe, let's say Europe? It's worked before with other types of content.

[Carnivale Ed]

At the risk of using the Alanis Morissette definition of irony, how's this for unlucky. I find this site for the first time a couple of weeks ago, think it's great, and consider sending some of my own stuff in for consideration. I write a whole new story just for the occasion and, of course, for the first time ever, I choose to feature an underage protagonist. Then I read this thread. Mum always said I was born under a bad sign. Timing, it seems, in comedy and BDSM, is everything.

That said, you gotta do what you gotta do. Introducing the comics code in the fifties helped the comic book industry head off the introduction of even more stringent government regulation, so I guess it's a smart move, but does anybody really think that it will help in this case? If they come after you, they're going to get you, underage stories or no.

I can always re-write my story, but it's a shame that I have to. I don't know what your circumstances are, Jinn, but for my two cents, fight the power, man!

[daddiebear50]

Though I question the 1st amemdment rights of the current attempts at censorship, and that this type of content will just move overseas, I'm not sure that I am sorry to see this content go. I will admit to having read some good ones, and some bad. And also why, and if it was acceptable even to myself.

Also, though I think Bush has been zealous in his efforts on this front, like the theory that he is resonsible for 9/11 when Clinton is the one who tried to shove a tomahawk up Bin Laudins ass (and missed dammit), this was started, or at least greatly advanced in the previous administration(s). Don't turn this into the political debate some are emphatic to make it. For the record, all of us Reps and Dems, need to open our eyes, understand, give a little, and elect better people. Good people are not one sided. be they polititians, or voters. And McCain/Edwards in 2008. We need the unification. I had a tough time putting one on top, but think 8yr rep 8yrs dem. Edward would get the aging I think hurt him. Not bad.

Let's be realisitic. The net has been out of control for quite some time. And as is oft said (and happenes) when it swings back, it swings back just as far or farther. I think that is probably a truer scenario than that this is just a politically motivated event. (yes politics is the tool, but not the cause)

Also, one must only look at the nightly news, to see how the need for some sort of control is necessary. There is almost a daily occurance of missing (and eventually dead) females, far too many of them are kids. If perchance this action stopped even one of these pyscos, I think most of us would gladly accept the loss of entertainment to ourselves. But..... you say. And I say, hell lets try it.

And as for the nightly news. You think Bush is pushing his agenda, try watching the 24 hour news stations. Bush is an ametuer, and they have 100 times the influence of any politician. (And they try to prove it regularly. Look at our polls, look at our feedback) They overplay any topic they like to further their ideals, and slick it up to make it tasty to the public. You don't think that they have a little to do with the outcry.

For the record, the censorship is coming on many fronts. Aol closed access to newsgroups (all) in Feb 2005, and Yahoo deleted our local munch group entirely (include all content of the listed moderators, financial, unrelated code, and personal, even their user name entirely) in May 2005. It violated their TOS by using the term BDSM, and member photos (they never specified only refered to the TOS). It's back, but BDSM is a non approved term and it is restricted in content. There are now more pics of 'pussies' than there are of human females (clothed only). A subtle protest?

So we have to endure. The good times are always followed by the bad times and vice versa. The problem here, is that I think we are getting both at the same time. We just don't like it, and want our cake and eat it to.

Just my humble opinion, add salsa to taste.
Db

[Masters_lilone]

i agree with the decision to remove the under age stories for two reasons...the first one being that underage kids have no buiness being portraed in any aspects of our lifestyle.. the second is becauseof the fact that most people thing negitively about our lifestyle so it is up to those of us
who live the lifestyle to set a positive example of how the lifestyle really is even if that example is threw our writing.... i know a little about thr red rose case and in away that site deserved to be shut down due to the underaged stuff on it ... but the goverment has no right to try to shut down sites that have to do with BDSM or any of the activities associated with the lifestyle....i feel as if as long as the people involved in the avctivity consent to it the goverment should but out

this is my two cents worth on this topic

[breakme]

For the protection of the site, this was a good move. Whether or not you agree that stories involving children are right or wrong, having them on this site presented a clear and present danger to all of us. I am not a fan of those stories for many reasons, but I would just choose not to read them. However, by having them available I think made the site liable to the powers that be in the current political climate.

If the anti-obscenity issue spreads to our world of BDSM between adults, i think it would be important for all of us to stand up and do something about it. Whether its donating money to the EFF or other first amendment law groups, writing politicians at the local and federal level, or in some way fighting back. I do not believe the government is going after BDSM in general, but rather the underage type of porn. While scat pictures and videos have almost always run afoul ofthe obscenity laws, I am not sure whether or not the Feds would go after a story site (and by that I mean one that is strictly stories and not picture trading as was apparently the case in Red Rose).

just my $0.02

[slave ruthie]

umm if Jinn Sir has to take steps to protect His site and His liberty by restricting what's available then it must be done! and if my stories are putting the Library at risk i'll try to amend them and remove any offending bits...

...what worries me very much, though, is that all these restrictions in the name of decency and morality are not backed up by evidence of increasing violent sexual crime. there's no clear figures to show that the number of murders, assaults or rapes has actually gone up because of the portrayal of violence or pornography in the media (including the Internet) and to suggest that the world was a safer and more law-abiding place in the past before the images and material was so available is simply rubbish. in fact there have been studies that show there's been no increase at all (please look at http://libertus.net/censor/studies2.html for more information)

whatever happened to Voltaire's famous declaration of “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”? i thought tolerance was supposed to be a mark of a civilized society where freedom of expression and thought was valued. i think we're living in very sinister times now where, under the mask of "protecting" us, our governments are increasingly acting as "predators" on their own peoples. in the UK, sites like this are likely to become illegal due to proposed laws on "violent pornography" despite there being no proof that our society will become a safer, more law-abiding place. i might not be able to read, let alone upload my stories on this wonderful site without being branded a criminal! i've also watched with dismay the morality witch-hunts that have begun to destroy the BDSM on-line community in the USA (Insex being a good example) under the guise of protecting public decency and vulnerable people. i'm sorry but i think the British and American governments in particular risk deteriorating into dangerous, un-democratic, out-of-control Dominant bullies and are fast losing any credibility in claiming the moral high ground

after all, you can't pass laws to stop people thinking or dreaming about things that are "bad" - and its extremely naive to think that rape, murder, violence and abuse are going to decrease just because we can't see images or read about them. in my experience the people who shout loudest about morality and decency are secretly obsessed with the same "perversions" they decry - just look at the number of politicians, policemen, judges, and religious leaders who are found out enjoying the same things we do! one of the motives behind my storywriting efforts with the Organization Series is to portray the sheer hypocrisy of people in power hiding their BDSM urges from public view - i really think its right that BDSM is the "last taboo" and we are being singled out by the moral crusaders as "the enemy" when the truth is that these desires are in ALL of us and don't mean that we are actively violent, destructive psychopaths LOL

okies, i'm going to shut up now - my Beloved Master says "that's enough and you've made your point, slave" so umm that's...umm...it!

[mind_imperator]

I, too, wholly support Jinn's decision to remove stories involving underage sex.

But.....

although I have no personal interest in stories involving underage participants, my view on this is that the only person who can claim to support free speech is he who permits his own worst enemies to freely say whatever foul and abhorrent thoughts come into their minds. This is difficult to bear when one hears Neonazis and the like propagating their dangerous misconceptions. However, i do defend their right to say what they think.
Freedom of thought, yes, but of action, no, which is why making pornographic pictures of underage subjects is rightly a criminal activity.

[H Dean]

It is regretful that such worries plague sites such as this. While I find stories including minors to be distasteful, at best, I believe that writing such tales is a healthy outlet for such fantasies. At least, it is far better than living out such fantasies. Something I think we would all agree on.

There is an ebb and flow with any situation such as this. Eventually the pendulum will swing back the other way. Unfortunately, when the pendulum strikes and if one does not have the proper backing one cannot take government censorship to a level where one can make a difference. The financial requirements for a proper defense are truly a tragic part of our legal system.

I would suggest, Jinn, that you bring your site to the eyes of the ACLU. While I am not a fan of the ACLU, due to their failure to honestly live up to their name, they can be of help should this site fall under the watchful eyes of the government. And, at the least, should the government attempt action, you might have recourse or the means to fight back should the ACLU have an eye open.

MY support for any necessary changes goes out to you, Jinn. I disagree with the actions taken by our government but I agree with the necessity you feel for removing certain content. Do as you feel necessary.

[leo9]

This is what Hitler called the "salami strategy". If you try to take the whole salami, people will fight. But they won't fight for one slice... or the next slice... or the next slice...

So you've given away one slice. What will be the next one? Snuff, probably, and then major mutilation. Then torture and heavy beating, and then what? Gay sex? Sex of any kind? Bondage?

Five years ago when Yahoo started making trouble for BDSM groups, I moved my group to a host in Denmark. This site could do the same if you really cared about your freedom. But it's easier to give in just this once... and the next time... and the next time...

If it matters, I personally don't like to read either underage or snuff stories. But I absolutely defend other people's right to read them if they choose.

[jj_frap]

The only thing enemies of freedom understand is the barrel of a gun.

I don't give a fuck of its Beijing, Moscow, Washington, repressive multinationals, or religious wackos: The only thing they use is violence, and we're not going to win the battle against our fascist, Stalinist, and theocratic enemies by playing nice with them.

[daddiebear50]

JJ frap;

Study history. Non violence has always, (at least in recent history) been more effective than violence. (Dr ML King was the epitomy of this and look what he accomplished, and an offered scenario in Claney's Ryan series (do't remember which one) sugggested a time when the Palistinian figured it out ala a Kent State affair (guess they don't read Clancey) is great food for thought.

[Alex Bragi]

Ed, sure we can agree to disagree.

I don't always agree with my friends, but that's often what makes them even more interesting to know. Please consider me one of yours.

[erotic_nibbles]

Jinn you and I have discussed this many times, so you know I support you fully in this to, hopefully, keep the site up and going.

Bottom line is this....reality check people....say what you want, have your opinions, etc.....reality is that child porn in ANY form is a HOT HOT HOT button in the USA today......if the site was taken down for it and Jinn fought it he may win in court, he may not...who knows really.....but to the bottom line here.....the site would be down meanwhile...and just where we would all go huh?.....and I'm not talking about the story library here....I'm talking about the Forums wherein we all hang out together talking and sharing views that go way beyond BDSM into friendships that some have even extended into meeting in real life

And for those of you that say, "....full steam ahead..."....well I support that to, but I would also say that maybe you should considering creating your own site and hanging your bare butt out there for the government to take whacks at ...and I say that with all kindness....seriously if you feel that strongly about it I say go for it!....and I know those of you that said that also said you support Jinn and what he thinks is right for this site

Meanwhile this site does belong to Jinn....he had the concept for it, he built it and he currently maintains the whole of it with little to no help from anyone here and I for one am extremely grateful.....so thank you very much Jinn!....I say we all owe you all the support we can give, in whatever you think is right to keep the site going....especially since we are the ones that benefit from it and yet it wouldn't be any of us sitting in a chair next to a Defense Attorney in Federal court

Ok have at me.....lol....I can take it.....<-----runs and hides now

~~nibbles~~

[chromedome11]

JJ frap;

Study history. Non violence has always, (at least in recent history) been more effective than violence. (Dr ML King was the epitomy of this and look what he accomplished, and an offered scenario in Claney's Ryan series (do't remember which one) sugggested a time when the Palistinian figured it out ala a Kent State affair (guess they don't read Clancey) is great food for thought.

Your idealism is admirable, daddiebear, but unfortunately will not help those who need it most.

Non-violence works in democracies. In fact, if you resort to violence against a democracy, then you know your cause is unjust.

Non-violence in a dictarorship is totally ineffective. It's only going to get you tortured, killed, or both. The only thing dictators understand is force. If you're not willing to support toppling dictatorships with force, your words are hollow, and you're deserting those you profess to care about.

[dominyouass]

Un saludo a la comunidad , deseo encontrar una persona que me yude en este negocio , dominyouass

[ghostsblood]

Snurgla: We are thinking in different contexts. As I see it, both rape and murder represent an expresion of the utmost distain for the victim, either making them suffer through the total debasement of their being, or simply robbing them of that life altogether. Either way they are hateful acts in the extreme, and more to the point... acts that will always raise bile in a spectators throat. After all, thats what a horror story is supposed to do.

Blake: c'mon, you can't honestly be trying to differentiate between a book, and a text file. Thats like trying to say a phone conversation is not the same as speaking over a walkie talkie, different medium, but still words. In my eyes, the internet is one big book.. only it starts with google and ends with a file extention. But thats not your point, as much as I dislike censorship, I have no qualm with providing 18+ only security measures; if it means that the internet can continue to provide for adult tatses im all for it.

"Having large aspects of topics not directly retaining to sex and murder, but to with a fluid blend of other aspects. Leading to the understanding(in however that comes) and fluid life of the person commiting those acts. It probably has a balance of sorts, leading you deeper into his life but without blantently making it out to be just rape and murder. I could be wrong, but i don't see how it could be so popular, and withstand any assaults from the governemnts if it didnt."

You should read it, its unlike anything else out there. But.. the story actually goes to extreeme lengths to illustrate Patrick Batemans (lead character) shallowness. He spends whole chapters depicting his after shower routine, others on his opinion of Huey Lewis and the news. Then others still on how the tortures and dismemembers prostitutes. Its a sociopath thing.

Alex: How much further can the written word be pushed..? thats a good one, we could very well be getting close in terms of shock value... thankfully horror stories aren't much more than fluff in the greater scheme of things... there are thousands of years worth of thoughts to wade through. The day the writen word loses its power, is the day I give up and live in the mountains. I like my mindless TV and Xbox... but if i dont get my 2hr a day with a book in my hand, i feel robbed. Now, if I spent 2hrs a day reading stories of child-rape every day, I would be bored of it in a week. But, to find a nugget once in a while, or to take an hour or so every week to add to my own story, I find both cathartic, and exciting.. remember when you were a kid and used to sneak a beer out at 2am in the morning. Its like that; not exactly illegal, but its a rush none the less.

[Blake]

Blake: c'mon, you can't honestly be trying to differentiate between a book, and a text file. Thats like trying to say a phone conversation is not the same as speaking over a walkie talkie, different medium, but still words. In my eyes, the internet is one big book.. only it starts with google and ends with a file extention. But thats not your point, as much as I dislike censorship, I have no qualm with providing 18+ only security measures; if it means that the internet can continue to provide for adult tatses im all for it.

I think you're missing my point. No, to me there is no difference. It is all words, and that's the solid foundation of expression in this respect. But a book, compared to text, is really different. A book exists in reality, text doesn't truly. It's easier to destroy text then it is to destroy a book, so they're going after the text on the internet. There is a difference, in their eyes. You've heard them call things smut vs literature. Im speaking from their perspective, as best as I can say it while still making a sort of sense.. that truly makes no sense in reality.

To stop a book, that truly would go against freedom of expression. It's really more black and white in that way. But on the internet, they can slither through and around expressions, and claim them to be indecent, smut, and so on. It's lax, it's very easily connected, and so they are very easily connecting their 'points' and 'views' in a chain around everything that is being expressed. Children being the main focus. Protecting the children from accidentally viewing,(or direct viewing) tying in other aspects to slowly create a chain that reaches around everything, and is strong enough to contain certain expressions. I mean, junk mail in itself, I read something about it being banned, or something in the process of being put into place, where any junk mail of the sorts that is sent to a childs email, the sender will get into a load of trouble. Well sure, that's good, children shouldn't be subjected to that, but.. that begs the question should children be on here. Sure I guess, but children shouldn't be the focal point for a expression field. They've become the weapons against expression. Anyhow, blocking off small pieces of a larger section of expression is how they are doing it. Starting off with the more, blunt ways. Child rape stories, and so on. Again, since the stories are so short, people who don't understand or care to understand them see them exactly how they want to see them, and it purely comes out as the worst of smut.

No, text and a book are different. Atleast to them. One is on a computer, another is physically printed onto pieces of paper, stamped, blah blah.(yea, all after the fact examples, but those things they cling to, which is worthless facts that shadow what truly is the heart of the problem) The internet just is an easy place for them to place an iron grip over expression of sorts. They don't like BDSM, or any form of sex like it. And as the internet is, like you said, one large book, or as I said, one Mind, it's very open, and easy to be 'structured'. How they even got a foothold on the internet to impose such things is beyond me, i guess since they made it? I donno. We make the internet really. Anyhow.. Ramble. It's just text to them, obsene text, they won't consider it as literature, and want it removed from humanity. The internets a breeding ground for it, so they're having a field day.

No, I completely agree with you, I don't agree with what I have stated in my other post, im simply throwing a perspective of some people that agree with it, in the lightest way i can. To me, there is no difference. And I know they would have more trouble breaking down a novel, printed and distributed on paper back that has sex/rape of a minor, then they ever will with 'text' on the internet. The difference between a phone and a walkie talkie is not to large. The difference between data on a screen and a printed version is. It's still expression, but one is truly solid, the other is just part of a mass of a 'sickness' that's floating around 'infecting' the youth and 'innocence' and 'light' of a 'great' 'society'.

It's hard to defend your position when your opponents have a warped limited generalized view of everything that is different to them. Building a bridge betwen them and you is a good way to start actually having decent discussions, without them slamming "it's wrong" "you are just sick", and crap like that. But the problem is, then it becomes an all out war once those bridges are built, and true conflicts of ideals and understands arise. Right now, they're just bouncing off of eachother, and since they have power, their assualts do damage, slowly, one step at a time. Atleast bdsm is not internet based, or it's be crippled in no Time. If they wanted to go after bdsm, they'd have to go after it in reality, not in a digital way. Anyhow, truly ramble.

I do agree with you, just needed to make that clear. And all of this is just an opinon.

You should read it, its unlike anything else out there. But.. the story actually goes to extreeme lengths to illustrate Patrick Batemans (lead character) shallowness. He spends whole chapters depicting his after shower routine, others on his opinion of Huey Lewis and the news. Then others still on how the tortures and dismemembers prostitutes. Its a sociopath thing.

I definatly will at some point, thanks for the tid bits about it, definatly caught my attention.

[Blake]

Double post

[csr]

Un saludo a la comunidad , deseo encontrar una persona que me yude en este negocio , dominyouass

Hola... bienvenido! Vaya al área de community/personals para buscar.

[ghostsblood]

Blake: Sorry, I get you now.