Very worried that current bdsm is caused by past abuse

[lillianskye]

[QUOTE=duktig flicka]I need to get some things off my chest in order to be able to ask a question I really need to ask. These have always been deep, dark secrets that I have not shared with anyone - except for my boyfriend in a very vague manner - so please forgive me if I'm not handling this appropriately.

Duktig,

I was abused as a child too. My bondage fantasies began long before the abuse. For instance, I have always loved being scared. I was watching that chessy horror flick waxworks and the part with the Marquis de Sad come on. That was it for me. I was 7. I think the problem you are having is that people believe it is impossible for a person to suffer abuse and come out with a healthy view on sexuality. I am here to tell you that is a myth. I think the part you are missing is that Bdsm is suppose to be fun. At least in my opinion it's just a game. I want a guy who can PLAY dangerous in bed but is a teddy bear in real life. I think that is pretty normal.

If you needed me to pin point for you some psychological reasoning behind my affinity for this lifestyle, I am more incline to believe its the fact I was a preacher's daughter. Or perhaps its because I am a control freak. Either way I don't think it really matters. What matters is being comfortable with who you are, and finding someone who you are comfortable with too.

I hope I don't offend anyone. This is just my view. I hope it helps.

[slavelucy]

I want a guy who can PLAY dangerous in bed but is a teddy bear in real life. I think that is pretty normal.

Hmmm, i have increasingly come to wonder if that's possible actually. i have known some really nice vanilla guys..but they just cannot get into BDSM...equally Wontworry (my Dom, lover and all round friend) is great, both DS wise and otherwise, he's loving, laid back and lots of fun...but i'm still not sure he could ever be aptly described as a 'teddy bear'...because in the end, he's still dominant, if he wasn't, he wouldn't be a good dominant. (sounds ridiculously simplistic i know, but i really mean it)

hope I don't offend anyone.

Whilst i might not agree with you, you certainly haven't offended me, it's interesting to hear about how other people see BDSM fitting into their lives, and it's what makes it so diverse.

(Although you may have offended the Marquis by calling him sad! LOL)

Welcome to the forums btw, nice to have you on board.

sl

[Caitlin]

Duktig flicka

Reading your story has really touched me. Let’s get to basics. Nature Vs. Nurture. Are we the way we are due to some sort of genetic imprinting as is shown by studies of identical twins separated at birth; or are we the way we are due to the environment in which we live.

Are you the way you are because of genetic imprinting or because of the environment in which you lived, or both. I would go for both. You have not mentioned your mother. Was she submissive to your father, and then to your instructors/teachers? Did she try to protect you from their abuse? I think not. Or not to an extent that it made a difference.

The amount of abuse you suffered throughout your formative years is astrominical. First Dad, then Dad and your instructors and the whole psyche behind the ballet business, then your rapist/abductor.

Stockholm syndrome is where victims of a kidnapping, or people taken as hostages develop a relationship with their captors, and they may also help the captors to achieve their goals or to escape the police. In order to survive, the victim attempts to relate to the captor/kidnapper to gain their sympathy. While this may apply to your rapist/abductor, it would not apply to your father and instructors.

Analytical psychosocial professionals cannot agree as to the reason why we do the things we do, but all would correlate early abuse to BDSM. Those who say that even though they are into BDSM and were never abused, there is the fear factor. It’s a part of our survival instincts. It also counts for the success of crime shows on TV. I could go on, but I’m digressing.

Any way back to basics. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. However, we know also that we can condition animals as well as people to act in certain ways. Pavlov’s Theory. Dogs learnt to salivate when the light was turned on, or they would not be fed. Mice were stimulated in a particular cage, and after a while they could only have sex in the cage they had been having the sexual stimulation.

Which leads us to Cause and Effect. You were abused, and you had a desire to please. It is a natural progression that you used the abuse as a stimulus, and you felt gratification at being able to please them.

Is BDSM harmful or therapeutic? It could be harmful if you were with the wrong Dom. Only you can tell if you are gaining any therapeutic value out of BDSM. As for your fear that you may be exploiting your boyfriend, talk to him. You said you vaguely talked about your dark secrets. Lack of communication is the major factor on the breakdown of relationships. When you feel you are ready to talk to him about your feelings do so. Remember you don’t have to hit him with everything all at once. If after you tell him and he doesn’t love and respect you afterwards, then you may have to decide if he is worth your time or love in the first place.

Remember to love yourself for the person who you are.

Caitlin

[alura]

Although I was sexually abused from the time I was nine years old (earlier, actually, but it was very brief and fleeting...not like the other was...which is what really, pardon the french, fucked me up for years), I feel that one has nothing to do with the other. Or it shouldn't.

In my case, as you can read in my bio, I was writing erotic stories from a VERY young age, 3 years before my ninth birthday...maybe even younger than that. And they were always dom/sub stories, though I didn't know the distinction at the time. Before I could write, it was pictures of the same; I can remember drawing them; though luckily I wasn't anatomically accurate enough for them to ever figure out what I was really putting down on paper.

Whenever I have been with someone in what everyone keeps calling a 'vanilla' relationship (STILL can't figure that one out) during the actual act, I 'go away' completely.

The only time I ever had a real sexual arousal was when I was writing my 'stories'. It was then that I couldn't keep my hands off my ex; and if he wasn't around, my hands off myself.

The only other time I have ever felt that way is on this site. Finding out who and what i really was...and what I really longed for. Now I only have to think of this site...and the life I hope to someday live for real.....and the same feeling happens.

So for me, despite the fact that I walk around excited all the time/damned inconvenient when you're trying to add a column of figures; this place was my 'awakening' to both [1] a lifetime of denial and [2] that real happiness was no longer just an elusive dream for me....but a someday, very real truth.

I need to get some things off my chest in order to be able to ask a question I really need to ask. These have always been deep, dark secrets that I have not shared with anyone - except for my boyfriend in a very vague manner - so please forgive me if I'm not handling this appropriately.

The basic question is twofold: Why do I enjoy bdsm and is it harming me? Then there's the background. My dad was very sadistic and had a Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde personality. He was prone to losing his temper out of the blue, at which time he became violent towards me and did humiliating things like throwing me to the floor and pinning my face down with his foot.

I was also pretty isolated growing up. I had to be home-schooled as I was training as a pre-professional ballet dancer full time since I was 8. You may or may not know that the ballet industry endorses teachers and directors to verbally and emotionally abuse dancers constantly. Less than perfection in performance and appearance was not tolerated and anyone who came over 105-110 lbs at the weekly public weigh-ins could look forward to several weeks of hell till she shed that fat.

As such, every male I saw when I was growing up was sadistic and every female was destroying herself to please them. Neat role models.

I would say it is highly improbable that this history and my desire to be dominated, humiliated and hurt are unconnected. The kind of things that turn me on often emulate my unpleasant past experiences. However, I don't actually know this, which is driving me insane. I'm hoping someone might have some insight on that. From a biopsychological point of view, it makes sense - children have a survival instinct to mold themselves to what their parents wish them to be in order to ensure that their parents take care of them. See also Stockholm Syndrome.

Also, an experience in adulthood appears to have affected my turn-ons. I was held prisoner for a year by a man who took my virginity and disciplined me very bdsm style (minus the consent). His main tactic was to shut me in a box when I was not obedient. I have since developed a fantasy for being kept in a cage. Coincidence? Possibly, since I get a bit of a panic attack whenever I see a suitably sized box and that's definitely no turn-on.

I am really, really, really dying to know what psychological effect bdsm has on a person. Is it harmful? Is it therapeutic? None of the above? Am I exploiting my boyfriend for the sake of vain self-loathing by taking part in it with him? Would it be possible to "get rid of it" and start enjoying vanilla sex? Or is it just harmless fun?

Sorry for airing dirty laundry. I just can't keep this down any longer. I need answers.

[FurryFury]

Here is your answer.

You enjoy BDSM because you are hot wired that way. It's not a good thing or a bad thing it's just the way you and many others are.

Not everyone who has been abused are into BDSM.

Not everyone who have never been abused are 'nilla.

We are what we are. We would all do well to accept ourselves as unconditionally as humanly possible, the way some hope to accept a Master, IMO.

*hugs*

Good luck,

Fury

[Dr Mabeuse]

One thing I've learned is that there are as many ways of doing and experiencing BDSM as there are people doing it. My opinions, therefore, apply only to myself--my own desires and experiences.

BDSM had nothing to do with abuse to me. There can be pain involved, but it's the pain of intense emotion and desire, not the kind of pain caused by abuse and contempt. I've never had anything but the deepest respect for the subs I've been with, and they always know that. Submission means nothing to me unless the person has something worth giving up. I don;t deal with masochists.

That being said, I know there are subs who are in it for the raw pain, humiliation, and punishment, just as there are Doms who practice BDSM out of a basic hatred and rage for the opposite sex or for anyone who might dare to love them. Those are deep and dangerous waters, though, and I stay out of them.

The original question amounts to asking, "What causes someone to enjoy BDSM?" and that's a very difficult question. I had all sorts of theories at one time, but now I tend to agree with those who say it's something we're born with, hard-wired into us. It seems to be some sort of primal mating beahvior. Some of us have a need to act out these deep feelings of the male as aggressor and controller and the female as submissive and controlled, and we experience such play as intensely erotic. That seems to be true for me and the subs I know, and that's about all I can say about it.

[mali]

I've always had a kink, and not really been abused in my life by any control/parental figures... though my life was a bit odd...
I grew up in the enviroment where my mother, her sisters and my grandmother had all been brought up to find a good, rich husband and marry well. My mother and her sisters broke out of this a little and married who they wished, so it didn't really affect me too much. I went to an all-girls schools, and was only ever allowed to go to private school for girls until my final 2 years because then a mixed (still private) school was needed so I would find a boyfriend amongst the boys there.
It was all about representing our family from a young age, my little brother must have worn more black-tie suits than many would in their life by the time he was 10.
I learnt to walk in heels at 11 and still have so many ball-gowns and dresses, going to a party where you had to dress up was a monthly experience for me from being very little.
I personally loved it really, the trips to London for clothes, the parties, opera's..... then as I got older i realized how strange a life it was. It was fun, but I knew it was a life I couldn't possibly continue always, I wanted to be a vet, but everyone said I should go into fashion/graphic design..... People back-stabbed and you couldn't trust anyone, no one was very nice but my school friends who weren't a part of the life i had, i realized that it wasn't a nice life to be living..

I still dress up and go shopping, but when i moved out i change a lot and liked life better, the people were less frivolous and more normal and kinder..... hmm, i sound quite old reading that post but i'm only 22

[Lavender]

I myself was raped when i was 14 my an freind, that was 6 years ago, since then i have an thing bout being forced to have sex while outside,and insdie for that matter, my either my bf or a stranger, in a VERY sick way i think some part of my brain enjoyed it my god know why at the time i was petrifed but now im not, ether theres somthing wrong with both of us or it mybe slightly normal dont know?

[cheeseburger]

I have a slightly different opinion on a lot thats been said here, so I'll try to explain myself as best as I can.

I am a male, and I have, on occasion, dreamed of forcing a female to 'submit' to me, completely. It never got past the dreaming stage, and now when I look back on that time I can easily understand where my emotions were coming from. As an adolescent, I was always very shy. I had trouble talking with my equals, and even though I had a large group of friends and was 'popular', I still felt uneasy around people, and probably got those friends by simply doing whatever they asked. I was never physicaly abused, probably the worst i experienced was taunting - nothing in comparison.

Contrast that with my fantasies. I dreamed of being an all powerfull, evil man that would keep another and force her to do my will. I was simply trying to be what I couldn't (at the time) be in real life. Add in the fact that I was only a kid discovering sex, and you can easily see where my fantasy comes from.

Later, when i entered college and had normal relationships with friends, and partners, all of my hidden fantasies and aggression melted and I only look back on that time.

Now that you understand my background, and as you know i never experienced any abuse, i can only guess at what it must be like.

When people who were abused in their past feel a need to be abused in real life - if only in BDSM or a D/s relationship - I feel that you are simply living with the same mental frame you put yourself into, back when you were being abused.

At a youg age, people are given their core values by their parents. Usually, kids are told over and over that stealing is Bad, that hurting other people is Bad, and a long time ago, in America, people in the south were told that African-Americans weren't on the same level as other people. My point is that if someone is raised in a certain environment, you can instill both (what we now see as) 'correct' and 'incorrect' instincts in someone. Some of that process is obvious - the laws against stealing, hurting, etc. A lot of it is more subtle, and takes place without you even knowing it.

When i refer to these instincts, I'm not talking about annoying parents - in most cases people rebel against those values. I mean the really basic ideas no one questions, for example the unspoken rule that everyone must wear clothing. Probably more true some decades back, but even now people get an irrational feeling of shame when you see them naked. Are they ashamed at their body? They know, as intelligent people that everyone has essentially the same body parts, but still, they feel that sense of shame and try to cover it up.

If you accept the premise that people are instilled with these subconsious 'values' at a younger age, re-examine the life of someone abused at an early age. They were clearly subjected to vastly different stimuli, so their 'values' are clearly different. In my opinion, they picked up the notion that what was happening to them was how it shouuld be. It was right to them, when clearly it was very wrong.

Fast forward in that persons life, and you have a person that still has that subconsious feeling that they should be abused, because thats how it was for them X years back. It isn't a big leap from feeling that certain actions are 'right' to feeling that they are good, and finally pleasurable.

People have trouble letting go of these subconsious 'values'. Again, look at the very obvious slavery problem America had, back in the 50's. You had older people - raised with the 'value' that African-American's were sub-human, and they had trouble re-learning what they were taught when they were little.

So, my advice to anyone with a history of abuse, and now enjoys it; look back at your life. Were you 'taught' to tolerate the abuse? Were you 'taught' to accept that submissive position? Did it happen long enough for it to, essentially, indocrinate you with a feeling of submission?

I personally think that every person also feels a desire to be happy. On a primal level, you want to be happy now. For evolutionary reasons, the act of reproducing, or sex, makes everyone happy. This is an instinct everything has, the instinct for both you, and your species, to live on. For that reason, when you do have sex, you feel 'good'. It is the easiest way for a person to feel happy, regardless of who they are and what they are doing. Add to that a subconsious feeling (of submission) - that is more prominent when the more critical part of your brain is too busy enjoying the moment - and you have a desire to be dominated, sexually. When you look back at your first such experience, you probably want more, and it snowballs from there.

There may be nothing wrong with it. Everyone is entitled to their own way of feeling happy. I think the problem with it becomes when it turns into an obsession, when it becomes all you think about. That hedonistic tendency is displayed in people who find other means of feeling 'happy', for example, obssesive gambling.

I don't claim to know the meaning of life; I don't know 'why' people exist, but I do know that escapism, crudely, is bad. You should not become obsessed with any one thing. Trying to extend a certain pleasure by shaping your entire life around it is not a good idea.

So to answer the original question, of "is it O.K. to feel submissive, and to take pleasure from it" really can't be answered by another. I feel that as long as you understand why you feel that way, you need to decide for yourself if you are ok with it. But again, just a caution: don't become obsessed. I may enjoy gambling, or playing games, but I wouldn't want to center my life around that. To me, there are other things in life.

To summarize what I have tried to explain, if you understand how, and why you have certain feelings, you can make your own educated decision about them. To try and put aside any second thoughts is escaping; to shut them out will only make them gnaw at you. I hope that this may have helped someone understand where their feelings came from.