Pain and its place in BDSM

[Bald_J_and_F]

We (my wife Jean and I, Friede; same-sex marriage is legal here) are, as some may know from other posts of us, a submissive lesbian couple. This may sound strange, but we had been a couple for 5 years already when we discovered the lifestyle and found out we are both submissive. So the only way out was to serve together, since switching did not seem to work well with us (no-one wanted to be on top).
From other posts we read we get the feeling we have a rather strange approach towards pain. For us pain is ok in one of the three following scenarios (or a combination of them):
1. Pain as punishment for misbehavior.
2. Pain in combination with sexual stimulation, like being hit while being in a 69.
3. Pain as inevitable by-product of humiliation (Example given: Having bells attached to nipples and clit is certainly painful, but the main point of it is the humiliation, especially when one has to appear in public like that, with bells perhaps unseen but well heard).
But to afflict pain just for the heck of it (example given: the dominant person just feels in the mood to apply 50 whip lashes to his or her sub and does so) not only gives us nothing, we even think dominants who behave like this are dangerous and not reliable. Yes, we know there are submissives who really crave pain, and perhaps for them this kind of dominant is exactly right, but we would rather stay away from them; they seem to lack self-control to us.
Don't get us wrong: We can take a lot of pain, and late Mistress certainly knew how to afflict it, but there was always a reason for it. It was never applied just for the heck of it; the application always followed one of the three scenarios we listed.
Somehow we get the feeling we are quite unique in this approach and that most people don't care if there is a reason for the pain being dealt out, as long as it IS being dealt out. Are we really such weirdos, or are there others who feel like we do?
Yours
Jean and Friede

[oneslave4me]

We're mostly into pain as an enhancer to pleasure. Pain for the heck of it never did it for either one of us. We actually don't like spanking at all, but other forms of discomfort are quite welcome.

Different strokes for different folks(in more ways than one, hee hee).

[Ruby]

Jean and Friede,

You are not alone.

For me, a little pain during play can add spice to the moment, like adding a little pepper to a meal.

Lots of pain and I don't like it, don't want it, and there better be a very, very, good reason for it.

BDSM is many things to many people, not all of us practice hard S/M.

For those that do, many times pain is a reward, not a punishment. If your pet/slave/sub is an M, punishment would be to remove the pain.

"Hit me, beat me, whip me," said M.
"No," said S. :-[

Ruby

[sayuri]

For me it depends on the moment.

I do get kicks of being used as a pain toy. In that kind of scenario I need to feel the Dom's arousal for my pain and humiliation, otherwise it won't work.

Punishments are not exactly arousing for me but keep me in the right state of mind. Usually I want pain to be added to sexual stimulation to get the "best result". It's pretty sensitive mental area, too much too soon will kill the mood .

Sometimes I don't even know when stimulation turns from pleasure to pain, and for me this kind of pain is absolutely the best. A Dom I know described it pretty well while whipping me: "this is just a way to caress you, pet."

[Movito]

What I've learned during my short (some months) BDSM life is that while we all meet under the big roof of BDSM, tastes are quite differen. Some get a kick from pain itself (I do), some only take it as a byproduct, and some hate it and want only to be humilated or even only dominated.

[master_kyrk1]

lets look at it in another way. When people say look at the person they are a pain slut do they mena if they stub there toe they have an orgasm? That is a pain slut give them pain of any kind and they respond to it.

my wife can handle a good deal of pain in the course of a scene, but there has to be a warm up first. Caressing light smacks strokes form the flogger. all with the intnet to get the nerve endings warmed up and the endorphins flowing. At that point it can be built upon till she may reach a point where she can achieve or border an orgasm.

She is not getting it for the sake of pure pain. it is a way for me to add to her pleasure in anoher formto push her into new areas of sexuality. Is this effective for everyone of course not. is there a reason for the pain yes mutual pleasure. If i told ehr bitch bend over and get 50 strokes she probably would but would be in tears for it especially if no reason. However if i say time to play and warm her up she can take easily 50 hard stroeks and that will push her into a new place.

The lines between pain and pleasure or close. have you ever had an orgasm so powerful that it has casued physical pain or discomofrt. or has a sensation that you ennjoyed so much you had to ahve it stop becasue it hurt. Just becasue you can handle certain things as pleasure at one momnet in time does not eman it will be the same at a different moment.

My wife and i had an opportunity toi play the other night with out kids being around for the first time in over 2 years. The first session went poorly things she normally liked were not sending her into her normal subspace she could not relax and get focused. Even though everything was relatively mild she couould not mentally get hwerself to where she need to be to progress. Later that night we did another scene. Where she was waxed beaten and knife played with has a couple small nicks annd a few brusies to show for it. This scene was far more intense in every sense. yet she orgasmed in it or came very very close she says she did not eveyone else says she did. Then becasue she enjoyed it so much and had a achieved a happy spot she fell asleep.....,..

the lines between pleasure and pain are easily blurred but part of benig able to enjoy that edge and walking it. is finidng a dominant that is willing to exp[lore you and your need and is willing to hhelp you navigate it. takes trust on all sides. trust on the part of the dominant to konw when is enough and to bacvk off. Trust with the submissive to be willing to say somehting is not write here physically or mentally we need to make an adjustment. Soon as i knew my wife had been on a bad trip the scene stopped. Several people came to our aid. with warm blankeyt cuddling and juice to amke her feel safe and secure and to konw that everything was ok.

reading back am not sure how much this answers the orignal question. however i think it gives a different slant on it. in short what you enjoys is what is right for you and if people wish to be narrow minded and jusge you based on that. That is their won damn fault. Who konws bby doing so they may miss out on what could be a very kinky relationship.

[Kaori-san]

I agree with you greatly Jean and Friede.

Pain should be used as punishment for me, not as something that is just given out randomly. I can take a lot of pain, but it is not something I would do for a Dom if they just suddenly took out a paddle and began a beating for no reason.

Fine, if I have been badly behaved then by all means punish me, however if I have done nothing wrong I would end up not a very happy sub if a Dom 'punished' me.

Like Ruby said though, pain can be pleasurable too, adding a bit of spice, let say being slapped during sex etc. A bit of light pain is fun and fine for me then.

Also, I think lets say having nipple clamps on then being sexually stimulated is ok too, but not just outright pain because a Dom feels like giving out pain for no real reason. A good spanking gets me wet, but it would lose /all/ fun if it was given often and become dull. However as a punishment it means you can not only enjoy it a little, but you are also getting pain.

[Ruby]

Looking at the last few posts, its easy to see that the old saying is true, "different strokes for different folks".

Heck, I love a good spanking, there's no reason for me to be punished to enjoy it. However, I don't like or enjoy a hard spanking. That's just me.

"What you enjoy is right for you," said master_kyrk1.

Agreed. So while I may enjoy a nice spanking and want to use it as part of play, Kaori-san may only want a spanking during a punishment.

"But to afflict pain just for the heck of it..." said Bald_J_and_F.

I think that "afflicting pain just for the heck of it" isn't about mutual pleasure. It's more about being selfish.

---
Side note -- Advice not requested

"This scene was far more intense in every sense. yet she orgasmed in it or came very very close she says she did not eveyone else says she did. Then becasue she enjoyed it so much and had a achieved a happy spot she fell asleep..."

Side with your woman. If she says she didn't, then she didn't. She's the only one who really knows for sure.

[Bald_J_and_F]

I think that "afflicting pain just for the heck of it" isn't about mutual pleasure. It's more about being selfish.

That's what we wanted to express.

[Ruby]

That's what we wanted to express.

Thanks. I liked your warning about those types of dom/mes. Dangerous? Very. Unreliable? Perhaps a much more polite word than I would use.

[fwss]

I'm a little puzzled by your last comment, Ruby. Many - surely most - dominants are sadists, right? They get off on inflicting pain and/or other suffering. Masochists get off on taking it. Slaves get off on fulfilling their owner's needs.

I therefore cannot see any way in which a dominant inflicting pain 'for the hell of it' should be described as 'dangerous', as long as they are doing it to a consenting partner.

[Bald_J_and_F]

I'm a little puzzled by your last comment, Ruby. Many - surely most - dominants are sadists, right? They get off on inflicting pain and/or other suffering. Masochists get off on taking it. Slaves get off on fulfilling their owner's needs.

I therefore cannot see any way in which a dominant inflicting pain 'for the hell of it' should be described as 'dangerous', as long as they are doing it to a consenting partner.

A dominant person should have a sense of responsibility. Afflicting pain just for the heck of it is NOT responsible at all. We described the scenarios in which we think the affliction of pain makes sense to us, and we think that should leave room enough for the affliction of pain. It is the context that is important. If we are given a difficult task and fail to do it or misbehave in any way (and there are lots of possibilities for that), then we certainly deserve our punishment. But that's a big difference to just arbitrarily dealing out pain. Arbitrarily dealing out pain is like moving a knight in a game of chess like a rook - against the rules.

[Ruby]

I'm a little puzzled by your last comment, Ruby. Many - surely most - dominants are sadists, right? They get off on inflicting pain and/or other suffering. Masochists get off on taking it. Slaves get off on fulfilling their owner's needs.

I therefore cannot see any way in which a dominant inflicting pain 'for the hell of it' should be described as 'dangerous', as long as they are doing it to a consenting partner.

Hi fwss,

Whether or not most dominats are sadists is probably a topic for another thread. If you look beyond the highly publicized S&M aspects of a D/S relationship, you will find there is an art to sensual domming and serving.

I think Jean and Friede answered your question.

Even consenting partners have needs, desires, wants and limits. Just because a sub is a masochist, doesn't mean they want pain all the time or that they don't want it within a particular set of guidelines.

I have friends who have survived some brutal relationships, where the dom would beat them, just because he could. Not for their mutual pleasure, but for the dom's pleasure. When safe words are not recognized, boundaries are not respected, when the rules are constantly changing and the sub is kept off balance or living in fear, then we move into the realm of selfishness and abuse.

If its consensual pain/pleasure, that's a different animal altogether.

What is the place of pain in a BDSM relationship?

a. it doesn't belong at all
b. it belongs under certain guidelines
c. it belongs if both people are having their needs met and are satisfied with the results/outcome
d. all of the above.

I'll go with d and add, it always depends on the individual relationship. BDSM is a huge umbrella, there is no right or wrong fetish, yet there is safe, sane and consensual play. Or if you're into risk aware consensual kink and that works for your relationship, that's okay, too. However, consensual is the key word.

Hope this helps explain my earlier comment,

Ruby

[master_kyrk1]

I too am concerned by what i feel are judments ebing cast on those who enjoy pai, both dom and sub.

Different people feel differently about pain. For example I hate giving pain as punishment it hurts if nto kills part of my soul to do so. For those of youwith kids or heard the line as a kid this will hurt me more than it does you. I find that is true. In aprt I am wondering if i set them up for failure with unrealistic expectations, or imporper instructions. Still does not change the fac that punishment needs to be carried out. Secondly dannette hates being punished she feels she has dissapointed me and the pain she recieves is not pleasureable or enjoyable in any way. (also if your enjoying the punishment is it really punishment but that is another thread)

We incoproate pain in our play bu in such a way so that the ultoiamte goal is pleasure. When i flog or wax or do other things to dannette I am not doing it with the intnetion to amke her cry or casue ehr severe discomfort. My goal is to walk the line between pleasure and pain, skirting it using the plain to drive her to pleasure. Does that work for everyone no it works for us. Part of the responsibility of being a dominant is knowing your partner. Taking the time to learn them. I like to phrase it this way. In a vanilla relationship you get to konw your partner. In a BDSM relationship you have to learn to crawl inside their head think as they think, and use that to psuh them to the enxt level. You have to be able to read them and to know when they can ahndle what. That is waht limits, negotiations,safewords are all for. I ahve gotten to a point with dannette where u can general tell if there is a problem (other than medical such as a cramp) before it happens and can either A stop the scene or B adapt in in such a way as we btoh get our pleasure.

To look at it another way perhaps more crass. If i had an expensive car I am not going to abuse it jsut becasue i am annoyed with it. I am going to pamper it and take care of it so that it works to the best of its abilites. To mne a slave or submissive is the same, you invest much time effort and money into the proper trianing of a slave or submisiive. So why wouuld you go and do stupid things that will damage the bond and ruin the proerty and its value for alck of a better term.

The term saadist has been thrown around a bit in the alst few posts. It is important to recall that the definition of a sadist is a person who enjoys infoicting pain on an unwilling vicitm.

Do I enjoy inflciting pain Yes I do and am proud to admit it. Do I enjoy inflicitng pain on a non-willing or non-consenual; partner no. To me part of the pleasure ius taking a persoin bringin them to their limits and heling them to push past them in a way that ultiamtely gives them pleasure. My greatest joy in a session is to see dannette come from just being flogged, or to get so relaxed that she can fall asleep. Yes she has done that.

What it comes down to as I keep saying is what works for you between consenting partners. If you do not agree with someone that is find but be careful in placing judgments for you yourself may be being judgedas well and theperson whom you ahve been judging may be the only one willing to defend you. Dont judge a book by its cover. Take time to learns its content and the meaning of that content before you make a decision you just may be surprised by what you find. I know I have been

Gets down off my soapbox and apologizes if I have offended anyone.

[Ranai]

Hi master_kyrk1, thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts. Your reflections on pain play for pleasure vs. pain as punishment, and how each emotionally affects you as a dominant in a different manner, are insightful.

It is important to recall that the definition of a sadist is a person who enjoys infoicting pain on an unwilling vicitm.

I would like to offer an alternative, less narrow definition of ‘sadist’.

A sadist is a person who enjoys inflicting pain.
This is a sexual disposition.

It can be done to an unwilling victim, or consensually and carefully to someone who enjoys it. (Or, carefully and consensually, to someone who consents to take a certain degree of pain as a punishment in the context of a D/s relationship.)
This is an ethical choice.

There are sadists who commit abuse, sadists who practise consensual BDSM, and sadists who don’t put their disposition into practice except in their fantasy life.

So in my opinion it’s perfectly possible for someone who practises BDSM consensually, and skilfully and lovingly flogs their masochistic partner to ecstasy, to say ‘I enjoy giving pain. I am a sadist.’
~~~

On the question about pain and its place, there are lots of options within the boundaries of SSC. Just a few examples:

It's perfectly possible to say: 'I enjoy taking pain within certain limits and boundaries as part of our SM play. I am a masochist.'

Or: 'I am a masochist, and what especially gets me off is when my dominant and I engage in play that involves pain dished out for no apparent reason (except of course because we both get off on it).' This can still be perfectly consensual and within limits.

'Humiliation yes, pain no.' Or: 'Pain yes, humilation no.' Or: 'Both, please.' Or: 'Neither. I just love it when he/she takes control and dominates me.'

'I accept punishments within certain limits as part of our D/s relationship, even though I don't enjoy them.'

'I am masochistic, but not a full time submissive. I just want some pain play for fun now and then. Anybody who thinks they are in a position to 'punish' me, take a hike!'

etc.
~~~

Bald_J_and_F, determining and listing the circumstances under which pain is acceptable and unacceptable for you personally, shows you as responsible and competent partners. Other people's limits and conditions may differ from yours; they are still limits and conditions.

~~~
Giving and taking pain, under whatever circumstances, is certainly not a condicio sine qua non, something that needs to be present to give D/s flavour to a relationship. There are lots of lovely possibilities of D/s interaction without any pain involved at all. As the other contributors to this thread have mentioned, it is for the individuals involved to decide whether pain has a place in their relationship or not. And if so, to what degree and under which circumstances.

[fwss]

A very well-put response ranai.

There is room for all the approaches to dishing out pain, but I feel that those who have judged doms who simply enjoy inflicting pain as 'not reliable', 'selfish' and 'dangerous' are denying that room.

Personally, I am not a big 'pain slut', but I take it willingly from my Mistress for whatever reason She likes, even if it is just because She feels like seeing my ass reddened. I take great pleasure from satisfying Her desires.

I can completely understand relationships where pain (or any other torment) is only for use for certain reasons... but please don't be so judgemental of relationships where it is for use for OTHER reasons.

[Ruby]

The point of this thread was not to bash or judge anyone for their personal preferences or kinks. It was to discuss the role of pain in BDSM.

If the "pain" in the relationship works for you and your partner, whether it be for pain, pleasure, punishment or amusement, then by all means keep doing what works for you.

To label someone's actions as selfish or unsafe, does not label that person. It describes how the posters feel about those actions within the topics described. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion.

I repeat and stand by my earlier comments:

I have friends who have survived some brutal relationships, where the dom would beat them, just because he could. Not for their mutual pleasure, but for the dom's pleasure.

Please note: Some of them have ended up in the hospital or under a doctor's care, because of this rather brutal treatment. Therefore, in my opinion:

When safe words are not recognized, boundaries are not respected, when the rules are constantly changing and the sub is kept off balance or living in fear, then we move into the realm of selfishness and abuse.

fwss,

If I appeared to be judgemental of any SS&C or RISK relationship, please forgive me. That was not my intention. Thank you for voicing this concern. It is valid.

master_kyrk1,

Thank you so much for providing that insightful post.

Ranai,

Well said.

Who's next?

[master_kyrk1]

Ruby,

You are correct when a "dominant" does not respect safe words or boundaries that does cropss the line intop abuse. Those individuals and i use that term loosely in my opinion are not even worthy of being called dominants. I hate calling them sadists for they give the "nice" sadists like me a bad rep. Any time someone is placed intp physical or emotional trauma outside fo the consent of bnoth partners it is abuse.

In those cases I feel that individual should be invited to an old fashioned Army sock party as the guest of honor. That however is another discussion entirely.

If anyone feels they are in an abusive relationship you have the right to protect yourself. You ahve the right to report it as abuse. To the authorites to someine in the scene whom you repsect whom you feeel may be able to help. If your not sure where to turn feel free to e-mail me and I will see what resources can be found in your area to provide you with the safety and support you need.

master_kyrk1@yahoo.com

[cailean]

i agree with your theory of pain being inflicted due to one of the three main reasons. In my own personal experiences with my Master pain is normally caused by the first two. We don't participate in humiliation play much if any at all. There are occasions, however, when pain is inflicted by accident during playful activities such as a stray bite in public or a slap on the leg as a reprimand from previous misbehavior. During Master's last visit to see me this became a more prominent problem, but we are working through that. i just had to remind Him that even though i can take a beating in bed (i.e., back side region, and the like) i'm still fragile.

[quagmirething]

I too would worry about some one who hurts another just for the "heck" of it. On the other hand I've never consented to be "punished" either, although there have been cases where they just assumed I had.

A lot of this seems to come down the distinction between S&M and D&S. My thing is being hurt for the sexual pleasure of another, submission follows on from that. So it works best for me when there aren't any outside issues, such as "punishment" as some sort of motivation. Mutual pleasure doesn't work that well either. As a switch I feel I have an understanding of a sadists desire to "be a tyrant in the bedroom" (as deSade put it), so sensual pain might be a fun why to spend time with a person but it's not addressing my core sexuality.