Organized Religion, Good or Bad?

[Sklaventreiber]

Religion in my book has done nothing good for society as a whole...

Look at the conflicts through out written history that were caused in the name of religion...

Your thoughts?

[Ozme52]

Certainly not most organized religions. Nothing wrong with a belief in a higher being if it makes you comfortable.

Religion, per se, originally codified most of the ethics that are required for the human animal to flourish as a social animal.

And Judaism set down most of the necessary pre-refrigerant food rules, though they are mostly obsolete now. I, for one, still don't eat mammalian carnivores. Too many parasites in common with us. (I do enjoy a good piece of omnivore though... as Homer would say.... "Mmmmmmmm pork chops!!

[Lina]

While i will agree with the fact that a lot of bad stuff has been done in the name of religon (look at the crusades and the spanish inqisition) I think that everyone needs something to belive in. There is a quote from the movie "Serenity" that says "I don't care what you belive in. Just believe." I agree with this whole heartedly. I am an active Roman Catholic. THat works for me. While I don't agree with some of the things the church says I have found that it is what works best for me. My best friend is wiccan and we have another friend who doesn't belive in a "higher power" but does belive in the intent behind the constitution and is in the Army to keep the freedom that he belives in and holds dear. What isn't imposrtant is what you belive. What is important is that you belive.

[Sklaventreiber]

...we have another friend who doesn't belive in a "higher power" but does belive in the intent behind the constitution and is in the Army to keep the freedom that he belives in and holds dear. What isn't imposrtant is what you belive. What is important is that you belive.

Ahhhh I must agree with the latter part of your posting that he does indeed have a noble cause to believe in as I to believe the intent behind the Constitution...although I feel it is currently being underminded by or friend King George and his administration.

[AshesInYourMouth]

While i will agree with the fact that a lot of bad stuff has been done in the name of religon (look at the crusades and the spanish inqisition) I think that everyone needs something to belive in. There is a quote from the movie "Serenity" that says "I don't care what you belive in. Just believe." I agree with this whole heartedly. I am an active Roman Catholic. THat works for me. While I don't agree with some of the things the church says I have found that it is what works best for me. My best friend is wiccan and we have another friend who doesn't belive in a "higher power" but does belive in the intent behind the constitution and is in the Army to keep the freedom that he belives in and holds dear. What isn't imposrtant is what you belive. What is important is that you belive.

With this, I am going to have to disagree...

If there is anything that comes from organized religion or just the act of believing that affects our mind, I think that it most cases it does it in a negative way (granted there is positives=good morals and the such). When someone is 'believing', I think that it gets a little too close to settling, and it puts a working mind at ease (thus slows it).

For example, lets say that I am born into a Christian church, go to a private school that teaches the word of God and Jesus as the Savior, and I accept all of its teachings and become baptized, confirmed, and devout. In the next years of my life I will be likely to mold my customs and decisions around that of this religion. I will not experience, or in most cases even look to experience or grow as an individual when the case is not promoted or is against my religious code. If I believe, there will be cases where I am shutting myself down to opportunity and the possibility of new/different things.

Beliefs (and the organized religions that promote them) can be a great thing for security or a cornerstone for a person's life, but they can be just as dangerous as well.

---------------------------------------------------

By the way, hello to all... 'twas my first post.

[Aesop]

Religion in my book has done nothing good for society as a whole...

Look at the conflicts through out written history that were caused in the name of religion...

Your thoughts?

I have to disagree here. Religion has done a lot of good for society over the millenia. Religion gave us our soul and a huge motivation for trying to better ourselves. Religion in it's various forms has been responsible for art, moral codes, and education for a long time. I mean we have the pyramids, the Greek sculptures, the Aztec and Myan and Incan artifacts. The Native American culture has stories and traditions that are deeply rooted in their religious beliefs.

Now if you're talking about the men and women involved in the higher ranks of the world's leading major organized religions then I can get on board. They've used the spirituality of people and the good intentions of a few men to rape, pillage, and murder in the name of their various Gods for centuries. But religion in and of itself isn't a bad thing.

[Tojo]

My belief is that religion, like so many organisations is only as good as it's followers or members. The ideals of Christianity (to take one example) if followed by all of us would improve the world no end.

I also believe many forms of government could be effective & desirable if not for the dishonesty & lack of moral fibre of some members.

To make the world a better place to live in, we need to look at ourselves. There's some old saying I seem to remember from somewhere- 'Do unto others.....

If we all lived by that, 'what a wonderful world this could be'.

Tojo

[Sklaventreiber]

I'm sorry, but I'm to cynical to believe that if we were to all follow the precepts of any religion, we would be no better off. I do not dispute the fact that modern law has its basis in religious law but the "radical" side of religion despite what its name is, catholic, islam, etc...always will "create" problems for society.

These are my opinions I don't wish to shove them down anybody's throat but hey, right now it's very dangerous to be a "christian" in Afghanistan which proves my point.

[submissivewife]

I'm sorry, but I'm to cynical to believe that if we were to all follow the precepts of any religion, we would be no better off. I do not dispute the fact that modern law has its basis in religious law but the "radical" side of religion despite what its name is, catholic, islam, etc...always will "create" problems for society.

These are my opinions I don't wish to shove them down anybody's throat but hey, right now it's very dangerous to be a "christian" in Afghanistan which proves my point.

That's the point of these threads, peoples view points. Some are likely to disagree it's getting along while disagreeing that is important. Although I like this topic, I am going to keep my opinions to myself. I just wanted to say "play nice".

[subdude05]

If were talking movies i thing Kevin Smiths Dogma has a good point in fact the whole film and association is proof that "organised" religion is'nt always as good as it sounds, the film was protested against by religious groups before it was even shown, kevin Smith even showed up to the protest and was interviewed by a local mews team condeming his own film, the point being that people who are telling people how to live are not allways well informed. The film its self does not condem religion in fact it is to most intents and purposes a religious film, but with the take, "it is better to have ideas" (Chris Rock), it also points out key factors that its highly probable (if not truth) that parts of the bible are missing, for example Jesus jumps from one age to another (i forget something like 12 - 30, about 18 years i think) because of the his family, brothers and sisters, which is more than likely, we are led to believe Mary and Joseph only had one child, and poor Joseph did not have a part in it, in fact it is more than likely that Joseph had more than one wife even,(but i dont know about that one). There was a news artical i read somewhere that they found a part of the bible that was suposed to be Jesus own account of what happened, like the deciples stories, one part of it said some thing along the likes of, don't worship me in houses of wood or stone, worship me in your heart. basicly Jesus condemed the church, you can see why they hid that one in the vaults of the vatagan. What else is down there?

My theory is that people can believe what thay like if it helps them get through the day, but preach it to me you've gone too far. Plus they should sort their own corruption before telling other people how to live their lives and death.

And besides, what if your wrong, George W Bush is buggered if he gets to the afterlife to be greeted by the words "welcome, my names Alah, hope you enjoy your stay"

[Aesop]

I'm sorry, but I'm to cynical to believe that if we were to all follow the precepts of any religion, we would be no better off. I do not dispute the fact that modern law has its basis in religious law but the "radical" side of religion despite what its name is, catholic, islam, etc...always will "create" problems for society.

These are my opinions I don't wish to shove them down anybody's throat but hey, right now it's very dangerous to be a "christian" in Afghanistan which proves my point.

And it's very dangerous to have a Middle-Eastern accent in the United States and that has nothing to do with religion. Prejudice will always have a place with those who are afraid; religious or not.

Besides Tojo didn't say to follow the precepts; he said the ideals. Very different things. If everyone could manage to follow the ideals laid down by various faiths the world couldn't help but get better.

[Sklaventreiber]

And it's very dangerous to have a Middle-Eastern accent in the United States and that has nothing to do with religion. Prejudice will always have a place with those who are afraid; religious or not.

Besides Tojo didn't say to follow the precepts; he said the ideals. Very different things. If everyone could manage to follow the ideals laid down by various faiths the world couldn't help but get better.

Maybe, maybe...but I doubt it.

Because it's too big of an IF...

[Aesop]

My belief is that religion, like so many organisations is only as good as it's followers or members. The ideals of Christianity (to take one example) if followed by all of us would improve the world no end.

I also believe many forms of government could be effective & desirable if not for the dishonesty & lack of moral fibre of some members.

To make the world a better place to live in, we need to look at ourselves. There's some old saying I seem to remember from somewhere- 'Do unto others.....

If we all lived by that, 'what a wonderful world this could be'.

Tojo

Amen.

[wabusheshe]

The blight of mankind is extremism. Regardless of whether it be religion, politics or ethnics. Individually these elements can be deadly in and of themselves, mixing the three can be catestrophic for any and all who run a-foul. It has been my experience that rarely do any of these elements apply alone, usually they will team up, religion/plolitics, religion/ethnics, politics/ethnics, etc. Organizied religion is most usually the combination of religion and politics. Even within a specific religious group you will find tremedous differences of opinion depending on the location and politics involved. The early drafters of the US Constitution understood this and did their best to ensure a separatation of Church and State. Most democratic countries have followed suit and have this separation of Church and State built into their constitutions as well. Unfortunately, as with all things human, it has been taken to the extreme. The recent out-cry from none Christians and some politicians concerning the use of, "Christmas", for the name of our annual December 25th holiday, is just one excellent example.

As has been mentioned many times in the discussions in this forum thread, Organized Religion is only as good as those that are doing the organizing and those that follow. Belief is a very personal thing with me and I thank God that I was born in a country that, "still," permits me to follow and practice my belief, my way.

Cheers,
Rob Allie

[Sklaventreiber]

"When any government, or church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, this you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know, the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motive." Robert Heinlein

[jip]

It is a fact that lot of atrocities in the world and history have been done in the name of "a" God.
Another fact is that several major religions, such as Judaism, Christianism and Islam have found their origin centuries ago. That they a monotheism religions and that they started in an Eastern type of civilisation with interpretation by western rationalism, which leads to disaster in sense as eastern people tend to write more with metaphores. The Islam has to be seen in a dessert type environment, and if you do this you will understand why rules for example such as women to cover themselves with shador etc are in it and where useful or even a must to protect them It does not work anymore within a western non desert culture...
It is also a fact that church structures such as within the Catholic church are really not what Jezus told the people!
It is a fact the some protestant reverends are sometimes abusing the bible to "explain" what they want themselves...

So, we can continue, but isn't the actual "prestige of science" not a NEW type of religion?

I will remember the theory of an Anglican Bisshop Robinson who in the end 60 early 70 years wrote "But that I canot believe!"
He brought the religion back and translated it into very "rational" explanations to the origin. Simplistically told : "If you go back further and further you can explain nearly everything, but one moment you come to a point you cannot explain: the deepest origin of yourself and the origin of the existence: that we do not know, well that we call God!"

[cariad]

My Christian faith is central to my life, I do my utmost to live by the teachings in the bible, although freely admit I regularly fail. So this is not an invitation for those who know me to point out my faults!

I was brought up in part of the established church, and am grateful for its basic teachings. But I grew to hate it, not because of what it taught from the bible, but because of how it tried to use God’s teachings to manipulate and control people. Too often what was preached was condemnation which is contrary to everything Jesus taught. Christianity ultimately has a message of freedom and liberation. I stayed away from the church for a number of years because of the condemnation and control.

In my time away from any church I kept my faith, but it did not grow. I was not able to discuss it with other people, be challenged, test what I believed, or be nurtured.

I was fortunate; a friend introduced me to her church. Its teachings were much less liberal that the ones I grew up with, but it was a church which welcomes people and respects who they are and their individuality. Yes, certain behaviour patterns are discouraged, if they are contrary to biblical teachings, but not if they are contrary to the church elders’ personal preferences.

Do we try and ‘convert’ people – well if we had a magic wand and could convert the world we would. But that is not reality, nor what God would want. Our freewill is a gift from him, and no-one has a right to take that away. We do have an open door, and organise events for people to come and learn more about what we believe, we advertise these sometimes, and tell friends. Why, because not only do we believe what we have is good for people, but, to be very unfashionable, we believe it is right. But that does not give us the right to push our faith onto anyone, all we do is make it easily available for those want to know more.

So is this the organised religion which I so carefully turned my back on, and is it wrong? Unquestionably I think it is right. It is organised to an extent, it helps to have a building to meet in, to agree when we are going to do certain things, to have people who will take on certain tasks, some practical, some spiritual. However using religion to coerce people into a particular form of behaviour, because society or government or even a body of people called the church wants it; in my view, will always be wrong.

cariad

[Aesop]

Too often what was preached was condemnation which is contrary to everything Jesus taught. Christianity ultimately has a message of freedom and liberation.

Yes, certain behaviour patterns are discouraged, if they are contrary to biblical teachings, but not if they are contrary to the church elders’ personal preferences.

You say Christianity ultimately has a message of freedom and liberation, but in the same post you say certain behavior patterns are discouraged in your church. I have to infer that (and correct me if I'm wrong) you don't mean violent behavior patterns or you wouldn't have had to mention it. I must assume you mean something like being a homosexual. The last I checked the definitions of freedom and liberation they didn't exlude certain groups, but you say your church does and seem fine with that. I don't understand how you can be. Could you explain?

Do we try and ‘convert’ people – well if we had a magic wand and could convert the world we would.

Why, because not only do we believe what we have is good for people, but, to be very unfashionable, we believe it is right.

Again I have to wonder about what kind of freedom you encourage if your members would "convert the world" because you "believe it is right". The belief that you are right makes the belief that I am wrong inevitable. I will never understand how anyone can be so sure of something that can't be proven that they will go out and tell others it's the one true way. Again perhaps you can help me understand?

However using religion to coerce people into a particular form of behaviour, because society or government or even a body of people called the church wants it; in my view, will always be wrong.

But isn't that exactly what your body of people called a church is trying to do? I'm very confused.

[cariad]

How lovely to have a considered response, and one to keep me on my toes too!

It is well known that the standards of behaviour which the bible lays down are very high. These cover all areas of life. When I wrote my original post I did not consider which behaviours I was referring to. Yes, we would discourage violence and we would also discourage homosexuality – but we would not discourage either violent people and or homosexual people. There is an acceptance that we all fall a long way short of our goals and if, as and when people wish to address issues in their lives they are supported in doing so, but they are never put under pressure to do so. The God I know does not have a big stick, but does have a big heart.

Smiles. Why would we try to convert people – because we believe that what we have is great. The same way as if you stayed in my home I might share some favourite music with you, because I wanted to share something I thought was good. But I ask you take note of my subsequent sentence; ‘Our freewill is a gift from him, and no-one has a right to take that away’. I hold firmly to that principle.

I am very sure of love as concept and know it comes in many different ways. Why do I have no difficulty in believing that when I have no ‘proof’? Because I have experienced it. If you asked me to give an example of how I know I love someone, or how someone loves me, I could probably pick more holes in my example than you could. Yet in reality I hope you also believe in, and have experienced love. I also firmly believe that it is right for children and adults to be love and be loved. If I come across some who is not experiencing love I will endeavour to take them under my wing and offer them some.

It is the same with my faith, I have experienced God in my life. I can give you examples, some more scientific than others, but all of which could have holes picked in them. In the same way I believe that to give and receive love is right, I believe that to be in a loving relationship with God is right. You are correct in saying that if you disagree with me on that I think you are wrong. That is not a judgemental use of the word. I merely means that I hold an opinion which I believe is an absolute. I would fight tooth and nail for your right to hold to your opinion, but given where I am coming from, I would like the opportunity to share my opinion with you.

Do you believe in any absolutes?

Ever since the Roman’s discovered the power of Christianity governments and society have attempted to us it to manipulate people. The world’s history is riddled with actions taken supposedly in God’s name, but ultimately for man’s glory. You use the term church in your question, which is an ambiguous term. The group I belong to would, I hope never try to manipulate people. They may offer suggestions, but there is no pressure or condemnation if the suggestions are ignored. There is nothing biblical about manipulating or coercing people. Jesus came to offer an alternative, but not to lay down the law.

Have I helped or added to your confusion?

cariad

[Aesop]

How lovely to have a considered response, and one to keep me on my toes too!

It is well known that the standards of behaviour which the bible lays down are very high. These cover all areas of life. When I wrote my original post I did not consider which behaviours I was referring to. Yes, we would discourage violence and we would also discourage homosexuality – but we would not discourage either violent people and or homosexual people. There is an acceptance that we all fall a long way short of our goals and if, as and when people wish to address issues in their lives they are supported in doing so, but they are never put under pressure to do so. The God I know does not have a big stick, but does have a big heart.

So are you saying that a homosexual can be a part of your group and not feel pressured to become hetero?

Smiles. Why would we try to convert people – because we believe that what we have is great. The same way as if you stayed in my home I might share some favourite music with you, because I wanted to share something I thought was good. But I ask you take note of my subsequent sentence; ‘Our freewill is a gift from him, and no-one has a right to take that away’. I hold firmly to that principle.

Okay I can get that you want to share something good, but you said that if you had a magic wand you would convert everyone because you believe what you have is great and right. That's a bit different than sharing something you love with a friend. That's force and that doesn't go with your freewill statement.

I am very sure of love as concept and know it comes in many different ways. Why do I have no difficulty in believing that when I have no ‘proof’? Because I have experienced it. If you asked me to give an example of how I know I love someone, or how someone loves me, I could probably pick more holes in my example than you could. Yet in reality I hope you also believe in, and have experienced love. I also firmly believe that it is right for children and adults to be love and be loved. If I come across some who is not experiencing love I will endeavour to take them under my wing and offer them some.

It is the same with my faith, I have experienced God in my life. I can give you examples, some more scientific than others, but all of which could have holes picked in them. In the same way I believe that to give and receive love is right, I believe that to be in a loving relationship with God is right. You are correct in saying that if you disagree with me on that I think you are wrong. That is not a judgemental use of the word. I merely means that I hold an opinion which I believe is an absolute. I would fight tooth and nail for your right to hold to your opinion, but given where I am coming from, I would like the opportunity to share my opinion with you.

Do you believe in any absolutes?

Death and taxes? lol Actually believe it or not, no I don't believe in any absolutes so I have a very difficult time understanding how someone can believe in an absolute.

Ever since the Roman’s discovered the power of Christianity governments and society have attempted to us it to manipulate people. The world’s history is riddled with actions taken supposedly in God’s name, but ultimately for man’s glory. You use the term church in your question, which is an ambiguous term. The group I belong to would, I hope never try to manipulate people. They may offer suggestions, but there is no pressure or condemnation if the suggestions are ignored. There is nothing biblical about manipulating or coercing people. Jesus came to offer an alternative, but not to lay down the law.

I used the term church because you used it when you said your friend introduced you to it. There seems to be a fine line between what you see as encouragement and what you see as manipulation, but then I don't know which group you belong to so I can only judge so much.

Have I helped or added to your confusion?

cariad

lol Well I dunno exactly. I have to say I'm enjoying the exchange so far though. Thanks for not reacting negatively.

[tazkill]

with out religion there would be bad people doing bad things and good people doing good things. only with religion do you get good people doing bad things. Christianity, Islam, Jewdaism.... the main three are all reasons for countless human atrocities, comitted by men yes, but done in the name of God. While there is a part in me that would love there to be an all seeing, all loving God, i do not feel you can find him in the stone walls of a church or words written by men in another language many many years ago.

Be the best person you can, don't do it for God, church or respect from others, do it because you know it is right in your soul.

[mkemse]

My experience with Street Preachers is simple, whenever I see them, i have asked by they stand on Street Coners and Preach and not do so in a Church, they're reply to me is always the same, and this comes from 5-6 different ones "I Preacher on the corner because I get more "Donations" this way and I have found any churchs in my area that wants me to preacher for them"
Gee I can't imagine why, you stand on the street corner, do not let people walk by, you tend to block traffic when you can and wear a $350 3 piece suit
that alone would turn someone off
Why not donate your donations to a local food pantry or a local charity, my guess is if you are wearing what appears to be a $350 dollar suit, you certainly do not need the money, or help a homeless person you see, there are many down here, you walk by them everyday day

Intersting if nothing else

[Ozme52]

Insofar as that goes, I much prefer a forthright professional mendicant.

[cariad]

"So are you saying that a homosexual can be a part of your group and not feel pressured to become hetero? "

Yes


"Okay I can get that you want to share something good, but you said that if you had a magic wand you would convert everyone because you believe what you have is great and right. That's a bit different than sharing something you love with a friend. That's force and that doesn't go with your freewill statement."

If I had a magic wand I would also turn all white chocolate into zero calorie dark chocolate. As I had hoped I had made clear, the freewill statement over-rides my magic wand statement (except in the case of chocolate).


"Death and taxes? lol Actually believe it or not, no I don't believe in any absolutes so I have a very difficult time understanding how someone can believe in an absolute."

This I think is the crux of our difference of opinion. It took me a while to acknowledge to myself that I did believe in some absolutes, still in denial about taxes, although the tax man refuses to be convinced. The greyer values become the easier they are everyone to accept, the more inclusive they are. So it is tempting to add nullifying caveats to every statement. But taken to its logical conclusion society will sink to a level where anything and everything is of equal value. Sounds good until you think that it means that a deliberate and hurtful word would be of equal worth as a kind and loving one. That in a court of law a lie would be considered equal to the truth…..


"I used the term church because you used it when you said your friend introduced you to it. There seems to be a fine line between what you see as encouragement and what you see as manipulation, but then I don't know which group you belong to so I can only judge so much."

In the case of encouragement / manipulation not only is it a case of degree, but is primarily a matter of the underlying motivation of the person encouraging or manipulating. There is also a fine line between abuse and between having my arse made so tender that for days I flinch when I sit down. The bruises and other outcomes may be the same, but I have no difficulty knowing where that line is.

cariad

[Aesop]

A thoughtful reply and one I hope to respond to when I have the time.

[Aesop]

Okay finally have some time.

"So are you saying that a homosexual can be a part of your group and not feel pressured to become hetero? "

Yes

How does that work exactly? I'm very curious because I've never known a group to be able to believe in something strongly enough to think it's wrong who can really accept the thing they think is wrong. There has always been (in my experience) subtle pushings and pressures to 'join up' with the normals.

If I had a magic wand I would also turn all white chocolate into zero calorie dark chocolate. As I had hoped I had made clear, the freewill statement over-rides my magic wand statement (except in the case of chocolate).

This one is going to be a sticking point for me I think because I'm having trouble seeing how your free will statement can over-ride the previous statement, but don't let that bother you.

This I think is the crux of our difference of opinion. It took me a while to acknowledge to myself that I did believe in some absolutes, still in denial about taxes, although the tax man refuses to be convinced. The greyer values become the easier they are everyone to accept, the more inclusive they are. So it is tempting to add nullifying caveats to every statement. But taken to its logical conclusion society will sink to a level where anything and everything is of equal value. Sounds good until you think that it means that a deliberate and hurtful word would be of equal worth as a kind and loving one. That in a court of law a lie would be considered equal to the truth…..

I don't believe that knowing there are exceptions to everything leads to anarchy. Or openmindedness to outright stupidity. Sometimes a deliberate and hurtful word is of equal worth. Have you ever had to snap someone out of a dangerous situation by being deliberately hurtful? I have. Same with a lie in court. I can see dozens of situations where a lie will serve justice.

In the case of encouragement / manipulation not only is it a case of degree, but is primarily a matter of the underlying motivation of the person encouraging or manipulating. There is also a fine line between abuse and between having my arse made so tender that for days I flinch when I sit down. The bruises and other outcomes may be the same, but I have no difficulty knowing where that line is.

cariad

That's good. I personally would. I would have trouble knowing whether or not I am encouraging this religion on someone for their reasons or mine. Put in a BDSM context I encourage people with budding desire, but I always do my best to be careful and back off if those desires seem half-hearted or based on abuse or other reasons. Again not knowing which group you are a part of limits my judgement, but it has always seemed to me that religion only pushes harder if the interest is only half-hearted.

This is very enjoyable. Like Oz says, come play with us in the other forums too.

[cariad]

How does that work exactly? I'm very curious because I've never known a group to be able to believe in something strongly enough to think it's wrong who can really accept the thing they think is wrong. There has always been (in my experience) subtle pushings and pressures to 'join up' with the normals.

My turn to lie silent for a few days as I was busy with other matters.

I accept that people often feel a pressure to conform to any group they belong to – but in most cases, as in this that is self imposed, and is simply a fact of life which responsible groups do their best to negate rather then exploit. But to address your question, we meet as a group of people who love God – not as a group of people who wish to behave as God wants. So why should we pressurized people into certain behaviour patterns. Sometimes, as people develop in their relationship with God they will decide for themselves that there are elements of their lifestyle that they wish to change – but that is a personal issue. Is there a danger of me coming under pressure to become ‘normal’??? Help!

This one is going to be a sticking point for me I think because I'm having trouble seeing how your free will statement can over-ride the previous statement, but don't let that bother you.

Is that an order Sir?

I will leave Colin to debate absolutes with you – since you know what I think, and will be interested to hear him express his views on the matter. (Can also be unwise to debate with the man whose collar you wear when he thinks he is right, and I know I am absolutely right – giggles and ducks.)

....Again not knowing which group you are a part of limits my judgement, but it has always seemed to me that religion only pushes harder if the interest is only half-hearted.

That is spiritual abuse and is wrong, wrong, wrong – although not as wrong as going for the jugular when someone is really low. Oh whoops – there I go using absolutes again.

Wonder if I dare ask when you would think abuse was acceptable - no bad idea.......

This is very enjoyable. Like Oz says, come play with us in the other forums too.

Am slowly putting my toes into other threads, if only as an excuse to use more emoticons.....wondering what today's will be.

cariad

[cariad]

(fun with emoticons time)

[Tojo]

Some nice posts there cariad, very nice.

As for me I stand by what I said earlier in the thread.


Tojo

[cariad]

Some nice posts there cariad, very nice.

As for me I stand by what I said earlier in the thread.


Tojo

Smiles, thank you for your encouraging words and support of a sub new to posting here, although moderately experienced in some other areas of life.