Removing underage stories

[Tiger]

Hello, everyone,

The issue of removing underage stories has been raised several times and I got numerous email complaints about them. Along with the recent news about the Red Rose Stories sites (see this thread), I think it's time to do something about it.

I understand that one of the reasons that you visit BDSMlibrary probably is the liberty on the story content and the support to the freedom of speech. But when Uncle Sam is taking action on his new anti-porn policy, it's time for us to do something protecting this site for the benefit of majority of the readers. I believe none of us would like to see this site ends up like the other one.

The decision of removing all stories with underage characters is giving them one less reason to take down this site. I would like to get your support on this decision. Thank you very much.

The actions will be taken:

All stories that have underage (younger than 18 year old) characters involved in sexual scene (either participating or spectating) will be removed!

1. Starting next week, notify the authors about the removal of his/her story with story code "Young" from this site. The stories will be removed from public view until the author submits the cleaned version to replace the old one.

2. One week later, all stories that have story code "Young" (and no cleaned version submitted) will be removed and the story code "Young" will be removed too.

3. Authors can send their updated story any time to bring it back online along with all the previous reader's reviews.

4. A reader report system will be setup so that any future or existing underage stories can be identified quickly.

With the help of all you readers and writers, together we can make this site better and keep it running longer.


Jinn
webmaster

[Eden's Girl]

I'm not at all unhappy about this change.

[redEva]

While I can not say I am happy about the change, I do support any actions You deem necessary to protect this site and to ensure that there is no problems that would result in shutting down the site.

I do not have enough information on the Red Rose case, but apparently it is not only stories that caused its downfall. While I do understand your standpoint, I am not at all happy that the fantasy is being censored. After all it is only written word and no-one has been harmed in a process.

[Blue_Monday]

I think it's always sad to see censorship get a foothold. This affects all of us, even those who don't like underage stories. First it's underage, next it will be violence, and there are some who would like to see pornography go away altogether.

Best of luck to Those In Charge of the site. It's probably a wise decision to back away from the edge just a little; being shut down completely would really be awful. I hope that someday there is a place, real or virtual, where people can be free to express all of their fantasies without causing anyone harm.

[slavecat]

what a shame..there goes half of my favorites folder...where will it end?
well you do what you have to do in order to keep the site running.

[drayman]

I wholeheartedly agree with this decision. It is best to be pro-active in a situation like this and, whilst it does seem to be censorship, it will hopefully safeguard the site and the individuals.

Sadly, it seems that the politicians are at it again, 'We always know best' is a phrase that comes to mind.

We in UK have sufferred this for years, a mad man goes beserk with a shotgun, so the 'wise' politicians decide to ban all hand guns, even those registered with gun clubs. Result, we are unable to allow people to train to shoot at the the Olympics.

The 'War on Terror' seems more a way to control people's lives even more and as for Political correctness, when an elderly lady was hit by a hit and run driver recently and described the driver as a fat male, she was warned by Greater Manchester Police that this was offensive language and could not be included in the description.

The inmates are certainly taking over the asylum!!!!!

[karisma]

Perhaps we(you) could go around the problem and simply host the content on a server in maybe, let's say Europe? It's worked before with other types of content.

[Carnivale Ed]

At the risk of using the Alanis Morissette definition of irony, how's this for unlucky. I find this site for the first time a couple of weeks ago, think it's great, and consider sending some of my own stuff in for consideration. I write a whole new story just for the occasion and, of course, for the first time ever, I choose to feature an underage protagonist. Then I read this thread. Mum always said I was born under a bad sign. Timing, it seems, in comedy and BDSM, is everything.

That said, you gotta do what you gotta do. Introducing the comics code in the fifties helped the comic book industry head off the introduction of even more stringent government regulation, so I guess it's a smart move, but does anybody really think that it will help in this case? If they come after you, they're going to get you, underage stories or no.

I can always re-write my story, but it's a shame that I have to. I don't know what your circumstances are, Jinn, but for my two cents, fight the power, man!

[daddiebear50]

Though I question the 1st amemdment rights of the current attempts at censorship, and that this type of content will just move overseas, I'm not sure that I am sorry to see this content go. I will admit to having read some good ones, and some bad. And also why, and if it was acceptable even to myself.

Also, though I think Bush has been zealous in his efforts on this front, like the theory that he is resonsible for 9/11 when Clinton is the one who tried to shove a tomahawk up Bin Laudins ass (and missed dammit), this was started, or at least greatly advanced in the previous administration(s). Don't turn this into the political debate some are emphatic to make it. For the record, all of us Reps and Dems, need to open our eyes, understand, give a little, and elect better people. Good people are not one sided. be they polititians, or voters. And McCain/Edwards in 2008. We need the unification. I had a tough time putting one on top, but think 8yr rep 8yrs dem. Edward would get the aging I think hurt him. Not bad.

Let's be realisitic. The net has been out of control for quite some time. And as is oft said (and happenes) when it swings back, it swings back just as far or farther. I think that is probably a truer scenario than that this is just a politically motivated event. (yes politics is the tool, but not the cause)

Also, one must only look at the nightly news, to see how the need for some sort of control is necessary. There is almost a daily occurance of missing (and eventually dead) females, far too many of them are kids. If perchance this action stopped even one of these pyscos, I think most of us would gladly accept the loss of entertainment to ourselves. But..... you say. And I say, hell lets try it.

And as for the nightly news. You think Bush is pushing his agenda, try watching the 24 hour news stations. Bush is an ametuer, and they have 100 times the influence of any politician. (And they try to prove it regularly. Look at our polls, look at our feedback) They overplay any topic they like to further their ideals, and slick it up to make it tasty to the public. You don't think that they have a little to do with the outcry.

For the record, the censorship is coming on many fronts. Aol closed access to newsgroups (all) in Feb 2005, and Yahoo deleted our local munch group entirely (include all content of the listed moderators, financial, unrelated code, and personal, even their user name entirely) in May 2005. It violated their TOS by using the term BDSM, and member photos (they never specified only refered to the TOS). It's back, but BDSM is a non approved term and it is restricted in content. There are now more pics of 'pussies' than there are of human females (clothed only). A subtle protest?

So we have to endure. The good times are always followed by the bad times and vice versa. The problem here, is that I think we are getting both at the same time. We just don't like it, and want our cake and eat it to.

Just my humble opinion, add salsa to taste.
Db

[Masters_lilone]

i agree with the decision to remove the under age stories for two reasons...the first one being that underage kids have no buiness being portraed in any aspects of our lifestyle.. the second is becauseof the fact that most people thing negitively about our lifestyle so it is up to those of us
who live the lifestyle to set a positive example of how the lifestyle really is even if that example is threw our writing.... i know a little about thr red rose case and in away that site deserved to be shut down due to the underaged stuff on it ... but the goverment has no right to try to shut down sites that have to do with BDSM or any of the activities associated with the lifestyle....i feel as if as long as the people involved in the avctivity consent to it the goverment should but out

this is my two cents worth on this topic

[breakme]

For the protection of the site, this was a good move. Whether or not you agree that stories involving children are right or wrong, having them on this site presented a clear and present danger to all of us. I am not a fan of those stories for many reasons, but I would just choose not to read them. However, by having them available I think made the site liable to the powers that be in the current political climate.

If the anti-obscenity issue spreads to our world of BDSM between adults, i think it would be important for all of us to stand up and do something about it. Whether its donating money to the EFF or other first amendment law groups, writing politicians at the local and federal level, or in some way fighting back. I do not believe the government is going after BDSM in general, but rather the underage type of porn. While scat pictures and videos have almost always run afoul ofthe obscenity laws, I am not sure whether or not the Feds would go after a story site (and by that I mean one that is strictly stories and not picture trading as was apparently the case in Red Rose).

just my $0.02

[leo9]

This is what Hitler called the "salami strategy". If you try to take the whole salami, people will fight. But they won't fight for one slice... or the next slice... or the next slice...

So you've given away one slice. What will be the next one? Snuff, probably, and then major mutilation. Then torture and heavy beating, and then what? Gay sex? Sex of any kind? Bondage?

Five years ago when Yahoo started making trouble for BDSM groups, I moved my group to a host in Denmark. This site could do the same if you really cared about your freedom. But it's easier to give in just this once... and the next time... and the next time...

If it matters, I personally don't like to read either underage or snuff stories. But I absolutely defend other people's right to read them if they choose.

[jj_frap]

The only thing enemies of freedom understand is the barrel of a gun.

I don't give a fuck of its Beijing, Moscow, Washington, repressive multinationals, or religious wackos: The only thing they use is violence, and we're not going to win the battle against our fascist, Stalinist, and theocratic enemies by playing nice with them.

[dominyouass]

Un saludo a la comunidad , deseo encontrar una persona que me yude en este negocio , dominyouass

[Master479]

I thought the Supreme Court had ruled on this several years ago, and stories about underage sex are protected under the First Admendment. Pictures, etc., are not protected.

Not that I like the underage stories - I don't mind them being taken off the site - but they should not have to be. I have not been to the other site that started this, but if they mixed anything with the stories, that is probably the problem.

[lex ludite]

Jinn has to do what he thinks he has to do; so do I. Ever since I started to post to this site the guidelines on minimum age were 13. Now out of the clear blue sky everything has to be revised to conform to the latest witch hunt of the born again, lunatic right wing of this benighted country that has taken control thanks to the lack of any effective resistance on the part of the American people.
I, for one, have no intention of changing a word I've written! Jinn should feel free to take down all my postings in the interests of saving his own hide, and income, I might add, since there are better things for me to do with my time than revise almost every single piece of work I've posted. It's been a lot of fun, but this is stupid and very dangerous. The USA is truly becoming a nation of sheep.

Lex Ludite, Jethro Jodhpur, Rolf Palsy

[Mad Lews]

I guess this means that the "Story of O" with 15 year old Natalie would be OK since she doesn't actually do it, all she does is watch.
"Return to the Chateau" is out because Nat and Sir S make it in a brief paragraph.
A fortunate choice, the original story was much better than the sequel, Good thing Pauline Reage isn't an active writer on this forum, and come to think of it She's dead now so we don't have to worry about it.
I'm sanguine with an elimination of kiddy porn, it never did anything for me.
If you're mesmerized with youth you can describe it (teenager) without dating it (18). I don't think we'll need to state that all fictional characters are at least 18 fictional years old.
Come to think of it I did that in one of my stories but had to take it all back cause Bruno was only 6, though that was 42 in dog years so he was an adult right?

Hope that clears things up...

Mad Lews

[Carnivale Ed]

All stories that have underage (younger than 18 year old) characters involved in sexual scene (either participating or spectating) will be removed!

Uh-uh. Under the new rules, Natalie's out of luck.

CE.

[Sabrina]

Hello, everyone,

The issue of removing underage stories has been raised several times and I got numerous email complaints about them. Along with the recent news about the Red Rose Stories sites (see this thread), I think it's time to do something about it.

I understand that one of the reasons that you visit BDSMlibrary probably is the liberty on the story content and the support to the freedom of speech. But when Uncle Sam is taking action on his new anti-porn policy, it's time for us to do something protecting this site for the benefit of majority of the readers. I believe none of us would like to see this site ends up like the other one.

The decision of removing all stories with underage characters is giving them one less reason to take down this site. I would like to get your support on this decision. Thank you very much.

The actions will be taken:

All stories that have underage (younger than 18 year old) characters involved in sexual scene (either participating or spectating) will be removed!

1. Starting next week, notify the authors about the removal of his/her story with story code "Young" from this site. The stories will be removed from public view until the author submits the cleaned version to replace the old one.

2. One week later, all stories that have story code "Young" (and no cleaned version submitted) will be removed and the story code "Young" will be removed too.

3. Authors can send their updated story any time to bring it back online along with all the previous reader's reviews.

4. A reader report system will be setup so that any future or existing underage stories can be identified quickly.

With the help of all you readers and writers, together we can make this site better and keep it running longer.


Jinn
webmaster

Whilst I have no wish to jeopardise this site, I would strongly oppose censorship on such a trivial issue as under age stories, for this is a fantasy site and ALL fantasies are valid. I might also remind Uncle Sam that in most countries, 16 and not 18 is the age of consent. Anyway, I hope that we all know the difference between fantasy and reality.

As a general comment, it always amazes me how puritanical the American establishment is over sexual issues, whilst they find quite graphic sado-masochistic themes totally acceptable. Maybe you should re-evaluate your priorities re. 'guns-v-roses' Just a thought.

Sabrina

[Rocky]

Looks like I'm going to be spending the next few days downloading stories to my hard drive, and then revising a couple of my previously posted stories.

A pity, because I do enjoy seeing how many people are reading my stuff; I supposed I could post to newsgroups, but then you really have no idea whether people like it or not.

[Masters_lilone]

even though i think that our goverment is screwed up i agree with tiger removing all underage stories to prevent the site and the academy from being shut down it was this site that made me want to start to write stories based on our lifestyle so it would be a bad thing to see this site shut down
beside starting to write for this site i am also a student at the academy that is part of this site. even though i do not approve of cenorship of any knd i think that it's important that we not give the goverment any reason to force tiger to shut down this site

[bgirl69]

I have to agree that is is completely appropriate to remove any piece that involved those under 16. And hating to instill a riot... but stories of CHILDREN much younger that that have NO PLACE in our lifestyle! That is NOT BDSM, as a CHILD CANNOT CONSENT.
To echo other comments, the last thing we want is for others on the "outside" to point that finger and say, "See, SEE... I told you all those perverts were BAD. All they want to do is rape children!" By leaving the children out and restricting stories to adults, the air of "between consenting adults" is present.
I do hate to see any sort of limitations placed on creativity or expression. However, I will not miss the "young" stories... they simply aren't my cup of tea and certainly can give our ilk the appearance of true evil (in the bad sort of way). If one of our goals is raising the bar and eliminating the misunderstanding of who we are and what we do, I fully support giving these stories the boot!

[lex ludite]

I have to agree that is is completely appropriate to remove any piece that involved those under 16. And hating to instill a riot... but stories of CHILDREN much younger that that have NO PLACE in our lifestyle! That is NOT BDSM, as a CHILD CANNOT CONSENT.
To echo other comments, the last thing we want is for others on the "outside" to point that finger and say, "See, SEE... I told you all those perverts were BAD. All they want to do is rape children!" By leaving the children out and restricting stories to adults, the air of "between consenting adults" is present.
I do hate to see any sort of limitations placed on creativity or expression. However, I will not miss the "young" stories... they simply aren't my cup of tea and certainly can give our ilk the appearance of true evil (in the bad sort of way). If one of our goals is raising the bar and eliminating the misunderstanding of who we are and what we do, I fully support giving these stories the boot!

For your information the intent is to remove all stories featuring anyone below the age of 18, even if they are merely spectators, which is totally ridiculous! Jinn would be a whole lot smarter if he got rid of the illustrated stuff such as To Obey,which is what will catch the eye of the inquisitors.

[Carnivale Ed]

I do keep getting drawn back into this thread, don't I?

I think it's important to say, though, there are really two arguments going on here. The argument in reality and the argument in principle.

The argument in reality is simple. Underage stories make this site a larger target than it might otherwise be, and Jinn is entitled to protect it, and himself, as he sees fit. As erotic_nibbles so ably pointed out, it's not our necks on the line.

For the argument in principle, though:

I do hate to see any sort of limitations placed on creativity or expression. However, I will not miss the "young" stories... they simply aren't my cup of tea and can certainly give our ilk the appearance of true evil (in the bad sort of way)

This, to me, seems a pretty common position on this thread, but one I don't fully understand. It's all just a matter of your point of view. What would a conservative member of the far right, for instance, have to say about almost all of the other stories on this site? I'm guessing he wouldn't care too much if they were all consigned to the digital bonfire. If you can't bring yourself to defend something you personally find objectionable, especially when no one's really being harmed, then how can you expect to be defended in turn if somebody else finds what you enjoy, equally objectionable? Should only the most conservative members of society decide what you and I may or may not read? Should only the least offensive material ever make it to print?

If one of our goals is raising the bar and eliminating the misunderstanding of who we are and what we do, I fully support giving these stories the boot!

This is the BDSM Library. Pursuing that goal may serve the BDSM side of that title, but not the other. As writers and readers, should we not also be concerned with preserving artistic freedom, no matter what the subject matter? Isn't a love of literature, and where it can take us, not also a reason why we're all here? Censorship, even of underage stories, has an implication that extends far beyond the borders of any one community, even a BDSM one.

There's no easy answer here, I know. I guess I just didn't want to go quietly into the night.

CE.

[delish]

I'm so disappointed in my country. I'm disappointed in what Bush is doing to it, and I'm vastly disappointed that the media seems content to sugar-coat everything and allow it to continue. Land of the free and home of the brave? I won't be standing for the national anthem until that's true again, and I certainly won't be pledging allegience to any damn flag. So. Disappointed.

Three kinds of people are commenting here. There are people who were squicked out by young stories, and there are people who support Jinn and there are people who are disgusted it has come to this.

Jinn's gotta do what Jinn's gotta do. But those of you who are relieved at the loss of a category need to re-examine why you come here. As so many others posted, what IS next? Will it be snuff that's banned? Cannibalism? Religious stories? Because as we all know, religion is also a hot button in American culture. Anyone who doesn't think it's fucked up that America is imposing restrictions on our right to say what we want and feel what we want and believe what we want is fucked up. It's one of the basic tenets of America's entire reason for existing. It's what America has proclaimed loudly and obnoxiously to the rest of the world. "We're the best, because we're TRULY free, unlike the rest of you schmucks!" (Not my words, just the impression America has given throughout the years.)

Just a thought, but doesn't today remind you a bit of McCarthyism? If you disagree with popular opinion, you're a communist! Today all you have to do is substitute "communist" with "terrorist", and that's that.

America scares me, because Americans elected this asshole. Thanks, fucknuts. Who are we going to pull out of our ass next time?

Back to the subject at hand: This sucks. I think Jinn's hands are tied (and not in a good way) and I think that is terrifying. It might be time to investigate another country that really does support personal freedoms. Or, at the very least, doesn't insist that they ARE all about freedom, while slowly taking away our basic rights.

Call up the firemen, because Big Brother is watching. My tone may be flippant, but you think I'm kidding? Because I'm not.

/rant

Best of luck with the war against terror-er... obscenity. The terrorists are attacking by way of obscene internet writing! Quick, tear down the Harry Potter fanfic before somebody notices!

Okay. Now, really. /rant

Please note that this isn't a personal attack on anyone who posted here. I'm just angry in general.

[vandemir2]

I loved practicing/reading about BDSM before I was 18. I'm 21 now, but that doesn't mean that I don't find what I did then erotic.

I find censorship of "young" erotica absurd for that very reason. Maybe some of you never had a single sexual thought before you were 18, but I strongly doubt that is the case for all of you.

Ya, so "exploitation of children" has another aspect. The part about some "children" considering themselves adults, or at the very least mature.

That said, I haven't had sex with anyone under 18 since around when I turned 18.

I do find the idea of sex with babies and children disgusting, much like scat, snuff, castration, and most other kinds of mutilation. But to paraphrase someone above, 'I'll still defend your right to write about it'

I'm rambling on. My point is that underage sex was one of the best parts of being under-age, and that was real life! What harm can come from a few stories?

[BDSM_Tourguide]

If you can't bring yourself to defend something you personally find objectionable, especially when no one's really being harmed, then how can you expect to be defended in turn if somebody else finds what you enjoy, equally objectionable? Should only the most conservative members of society decide what you and I may or may not read? Should only the least offensive material ever make it to print?

Indeed. An excellent point.

I, for one, find bestiality to be abhorrent. However, I do not shout from the faters that bestiality stories should all be removed because I don't personally care for them. I just don't read them. Easy as all that.

But if the legality is the issue, then it should be noted that nearly ever state in the US has laws against bestiality, too. I think Arkansas is the only state in which it is presently legal to fuck a goat. Shall we not remove the bestiality code as well?

[Kaori-san]

IMO:

Fine, it is disgusting to have the idea of a full grown man having sex with a girl of 8 or 9 years. I see nothing wrong with the tales of the 16 year old high school girls. Most teens already have had sex by then anyway.

The rules off SSC are applied to people practicing BDSM, however a story is fantasy. Most are merely what people think about, not what anyone would or probably could actually do. That is; in many ways, a better thing to do, read or write about child sex, beastality, rape etc. than to go out and actually do it. Stories can provide a good escape for people and at least people are reading about it instead of doing it.

Now; however, this is Jinn's site, if he wants to remove underage stories he can. I support the decission with that.
Think about it this way, you either have the site without the underage stories or you let the government find the site with them and close it down. Take out a few of the stories or loose everything.

Hopefully when there is a re-election things will ease up; but until then it is in the best interests of the site to get rid of the underage stories.

[nova]

Did anyone else see this:

'October 20, 2005 - Attorney General Alberto Gonzales has announced that his office will specifically target "bestiality, urination, defecation, as well as sadistic and masochistic behavior" in pursuing new obscenity prosecutions. The Department of Justice began recruiting in late July for a new anti-obscenity squad to pursue obscenity prosecutions...'

The full article is here

If they take this to its ultimate conclusion, no story site hosted within the US is safe...As usual, it is politicians looking for a soft target and a quick boost to their popularity, but it goes deeper than that. Start censoring the written word for the so-called "public good" and that's yet another freedom quietly eroded...it truly makes me shudder.

[sm4hg]

Well, first I have to admit I'm attracted by stories involving "minors" up (or better down) to a certain age (about 14, I'd say). I especially like those stories where a boy/girl dominates his/her mother (just think of those great Kathy Andrews stories *sigh*). Now there's definitely no child harmed, if someone then it's the mother....

But to come to the topic. I support all those fighting for freedom. Cencorship in any way does not help anybody. Those of you who consent with taking out child porn here just because you don't like it are too narrow minded. It's not a personal thing. It's not a "I-like-it" vs. "I-don't-like-it" thing. It's cencorship. It's castration.

Of course pedos feed on those child stories. Let them. Hopefully they're full (pigged out?) afterwards and don't go to abuse a child to unburden from pent-up unfulfilled desires. Porn - in general - is a good method to get relief in some way or other.
But it's the same with those rapists or killers or... whatever you want to choose.
So I think noone here want's to have the stories removed that are labelled NC, MC, drugs, rape ... because that's why we come here. But all those are illegal, too, aren't they?
Where does it begin and where does it end? Well, it starts right here and ends up with no porn at all anymore.

IMO:

Hopefully when there is a re-election things will ease up; but until then it is in the best interests of the site to get rid of the underage stories.

Just a question: Did you ever hear of a law/restriction/cencorship being abolished by those who fallowed? Once installed it's hard (or impossible) to get rid of it. Especially when it's about such a taboo thing like porn. Otherwise a politician would have to state he likes porn....

Finally I wanted to ask if anybody knows what has happened to the "book project". The site hasn't been updated for about half a year so I tried to go there but was told the site has been closed. Is this due to this cencorship?

Ps:I didn't want to insult anybody but if there's someone who wants to feel insulted... well I don't mind...