the mind, the soul, and heaven

[DOMLORD]

so for this particular exercise we will assume that heaven exists, it is ruled by a Christian God's law, and that if you're not a morally upstanding person you don't get into heaven.

a man with schizophenia kills several people, you know to get the voices to stop. becasue it is basically God's doing that gave this man a judgement and personality disorder should this man go to hell for his action, after shooting up with cocain as the final act of silencing the voices.

[Thorne]

so for this particular exercise we will assume that heaven exists, it is ruled by a Christian God's law, and that if you're not a morally upstanding person you don't get into heaven.

I assume that by Christian God you are referring to the New Testament God? The "very goody-goody, no sin can be unforgivable if you're really, really sorry" God?

And WHICH Christian God? The Protestant Christian God? The Baptist Christian God? The Roman Catholic God? The Greek Orthodox God? The Russian Orthodox God? While they are all similar there are fundamental differences in them, and in who they will allow into heaven. So let's make sure we know which God is making the rules.

a man with schizophenia kills several people, you know to get the voices to stop. becasue it is basically God's doing that gave this man a judgement and personality disorder should this man go to hell for his action, after shooting up with cocain as the final act of silencing the voices.

This sounds more like the Old Testament God, persecuting his subjects just for the hell of it. If God made him insane, can God hold him responsible for the results of his insanity? Well, if God is making the rules then I suppose he can.

To my mind this touches on the fundamental question of religion: if God made us the way we are then how can we be held liable for our actions? And if we hear voices telling us to do these things, who's to say whether the voices are those of God or Satan or just our own tormented minds? All of the holy men throughout history, from Abraham through Moses and Jesus and Muhammad, all heard voices at one point or another. They proclaimed that those voices were the voice of God, and people believed them. Who's to say that some poor schmuck who felt the need to kill his family wasn't hearing those same voices? So how can we punish him if he's doing what God told him to do? And how can we be sure that it wasn't God who was telling him? Hell, for all we know the only way into heaven is to sacrifice your family to this bloodthirsty God. No one can prove otherwise.

[dynamicbuttler]

I don't see why these arguments get so philosophical. I really don't. Are you trying to say there is no god? Have fun with trying to do it that way! In terms of arguments and rhetoric, religious and philosophical debate is absolutely crawling with irrational assumptions and get out of jail free cards. You can never corner a religious person with logic, because their mode of thought is so bellow logic that it appears to transcend it.

What I'm getting at is, if you make a point like the one you made, they can say pretty much anything to refute that point. All you've succeeded in doing is getting a philosophical debate going on, full of political correctness and "spirituality" (god I hate that word) in which no one's a loser and everyone has either their own head or a supportive thumb up their ass.

If you want to attack religion, be logical about it- not philosophical. There is no evidence for a soul or a god. Argument done. Notice how very little can be said in return that isn't spiritual, philosophical, religious, programmed, or just plain incorrect.

[Thorne]

There is no evidence for a soul or a god. Argument done. Notice how very little can be said in return that isn't spiritual, philosophical, religious, programmed, or just plain incorrect.

While I agree with what you are saying in principle, by the same token there is no proof that God or a soul does NOT exist. And to be truthful, there is no amount of logic or science which can prove that they don't exist. While we may learn all there is to know about what happened after the Big Bang, there are still no viable theories about WHY the Big Bang occurred, or what came before. SOMETHING caused it, and it might well have been God. There's no proof one way or the other.

[Alex Bragi]

Good points, Thorne, and as an open-minded and self confessed--"I honestly don't believe I have the answers"--agnostic, I agree with you completely.

I'd also like to remind people reading this that we do have a number of good people here, at the Library, who also just happen to be theists. While I understand it's not always easy to understand beliefs different from our own, I feel that it's still important to respect them.

[ObjectivistActivist]

Firstly, it's still an open question as to whether the Big Bang is actually the "starting point" of the universe. There are alternate theories that exist, and not any of them have yet been conclusively proven. In fact, Big Bang tends to ignore a fair bit of evidence that contradicts it.

Secondly, I object to the dissociation of logic and philosophy. Philosophy is the first field of formalized logic, as laid out by Aristotle. Just because charlatans and wannabes and apologists have made every effort to trivialize philosophical thought and necessity, doesn't mean they've actually succeeded...unless you let them.

Thirdly, there is more sound circumstantial evidence that god does not exist than there is for his/her/its existence.

Fourth, the guy goes to heaven. a) He's insane, and all insane people get a free pass according to the bible. b) Religeous determinism states that everything that happens is according to god's plan, and therefore the people he killed must have been required to die when he killed them, and by his hand. Thus, he's doing god's work.

Of course, I'm probably missing a few contradicting passages, that tends to happen in this realm.