Ed, sure we can agree to disagree.
I don't always agree with my friends, but that's often what makes them even more interesting to know. Please consider me one of yours.
:)
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Ed, sure we can agree to disagree.
I don't always agree with my friends, but that's often what makes them even more interesting to know. Please consider me one of yours.
:)
I couldn't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Bragi
I will, indeed, consider you a friend, and will be most honoured if you consent to do the same.
Thank goodness I can stop defending child porn, even if it is of the fictional variety. I was beginning to feel icky. Perhaps that, most of all, finally proves your point?
CE :)
Jinn has to do what he thinks he has to do; so do I. Ever since I started to post to this site the guidelines on minimum age were 13. Now out of the clear blue sky everything has to be revised to conform to the latest witch hunt of the born again, lunatic right wing of this benighted country that has taken control thanks to the lack of any effective resistance on the part of the American people.
I, for one, have no intention of changing a word I've written! Jinn should feel free to take down all my postings in the interests of saving his own hide, and income, I might add, since there are better things for me to do with my time than revise almost every single piece of work I've posted. It's been a lot of fun, but this is stupid and very dangerous. The USA is truly becoming a nation of sheep.
Lex Ludite, Jethro Jodhpur, Rolf Palsy
I guess this means that the "Story of O" with 15 year old Natalie would be OK since she doesn't actually do it, all she does is watch.
"Return to the Chateau" is out because Nat and Sir S make it in a brief paragraph.
A fortunate choice, the original story was much better than the sequel, Good thing Pauline Reage isn't an active writer on this forum, and come to think of it She's dead now so we don't have to worry about it.
I'm sanguine with an elimination of kiddy porn, it never did anything for me.
If you're mesmerized with youth you can describe it (teenager) without dating it (18). I don't think we'll need to state that all fictional characters are at least 18 fictional years old.
Come to think of it I did that in one of my stories but had to take it all back cause Bruno was only 6, though that was 42 in dog years so he was an adult right?
Hope that clears things up...
Mad Lews
Uh-uh. Under the new rules, Natalie's out of luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinn
CE.
Jinn you and I have discussed this many times, so you know I support you fully in this to, hopefully, keep the site up and going.
Bottom line is this....reality check people....say what you want, have your opinions, etc.....reality is that child porn in ANY form is a HOT HOT HOT button in the USA today......if the site was taken down for it and Jinn fought it he may win in court, he may not...who knows really.....but to the bottom line here.....the site would be down meanwhile...and just where we would all go huh?.....and I'm not talking about the story library here....I'm talking about the Forums wherein we all hang out together talking and sharing views that go way beyond BDSM into friendships that some have even extended into meeting in real life
And for those of you that say, "....full steam ahead..."....well I support that to, but I would also say that maybe you should considering creating your own site and hanging your bare butt out there for the government to take whacks at :)...and I say that with all kindness....seriously if you feel that strongly about it I say go for it!....and I know those of you that said that also said you support Jinn and what he thinks is right for this site :)
Meanwhile this site does belong to Jinn....he had the concept for it, he built it and he currently maintains the whole of it with little to no help from anyone here and I for one am extremely grateful.....so thank you very much Jinn!....I say we all owe you all the support we can give, in whatever you think is right to keep the site going....especially since we are the ones that benefit from it and yet it wouldn't be any of us sitting in a chair next to a Defense Attorney in Federal court
Ok have at me.....lol....I can take it.....<-----runs and hides now :D
~~nibbles~~
Whilst I have no wish to jeopardise this site, I would strongly oppose censorship on such a trivial issue as under age stories, for this is a fantasy site and ALL fantasies are valid. I might also remind Uncle Sam that in most countries, 16 and not 18 is the age of consent. Anyway, I hope that we all know the difference between fantasy and reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinn
As a general comment, it always amazes me how puritanical the American establishment is over sexual issues, whilst they find quite graphic sado-masochistic themes totally acceptable. Maybe you should re-evaluate your priorities re. 'guns-v-roses' Just a thought.
Sabrina
Your idealism is admirable, daddiebear, but unfortunately will not help those who need it most.Quote:
Originally Posted by daddiebear50
Non-violence works in democracies. In fact, if you resort to violence against a democracy, then you know your cause is unjust.
Non-violence in a dictarorship is totally ineffective. It's only going to get you tortured, killed, or both. The only thing dictators understand is force. If you're not willing to support toppling dictatorships with force, your words are hollow, and you're deserting those you profess to care about.
:applaus: Well said nibbles :) I agree... it is Jinn's site and his decision, and this site (particually the forums) is an amazing place to meet and greet such nice people from all walks of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by erotic_nibbles
Looks like I'm going to be spending the next few days downloading stories to my hard drive, and then revising a couple of my previously posted stories.
A pity, because I do enjoy seeing how many people are reading my stuff; I supposed I could post to newsgroups, but then you really have no idea whether people like it or not.
I have to agree that is is completely appropriate to remove any piece that involved those under 16. And hating to instill a riot... but stories of CHILDREN much younger that that have NO PLACE in our lifestyle! That is NOT BDSM, as a CHILD CANNOT CONSENT.
To echo other comments, the last thing we want is for others on the "outside" to point that finger and say, "See, SEE... I told you all those perverts were BAD. All they want to do is rape children!" By leaving the children out and restricting stories to adults, the air of "between consenting adults" is present.
I do hate to see any sort of limitations placed on creativity or expression. However, I will not miss the "young" stories... they simply aren't my cup of tea and certainly can give our ilk the appearance of true evil (in the bad sort of way). If one of our goals is raising the bar and eliminating the misunderstanding of who we are and what we do, I fully support giving these stories the boot!
For your information the intent is to remove all stories featuring anyone below the age of 18, even if they are merely spectators, which is totally ridiculous! Jinn would be a whole lot smarter if he got rid of the illustrated stuff such as To Obey,which is what will catch the eye of the inquisitors.Quote:
Originally Posted by bgirl69
I do keep getting drawn back into this thread, don't I?
I think it's important to say, though, there are really two arguments going on here. The argument in reality and the argument in principle.
The argument in reality is simple. Underage stories make this site a larger target than it might otherwise be, and Jinn is entitled to protect it, and himself, as he sees fit. As erotic_nibbles so ably pointed out, it's not our necks on the line.
For the argument in principle, though:
This, to me, seems a pretty common position on this thread, but one I don't fully understand. It's all just a matter of your point of view. What would a conservative member of the far right, for instance, have to say about almost all of the other stories on this site? I'm guessing he wouldn't care too much if they were all consigned to the digital bonfire. If you can't bring yourself to defend something you personally find objectionable, especially when no one's really being harmed, then how can you expect to be defended in turn if somebody else finds what you enjoy, equally objectionable? Should only the most conservative members of society decide what you and I may or may not read? Should only the least offensive material ever make it to print?Quote:
Originally Posted by bgirl69
This is the BDSM Library. Pursuing that goal may serve the BDSM side of that title, but not the other. As writers and readers, should we not also be concerned with preserving artistic freedom, no matter what the subject matter? Isn't a love of literature, and where it can take us, not also a reason why we're all here? Censorship, even of underage stories, has an implication that extends far beyond the borders of any one community, even a BDSM one.Quote:
Originally Posted by bgirl69
There's no easy answer here, I know. I guess I just didn't want to go quietly into the night.
CE.
I'm so disappointed in my country. I'm disappointed in what Bush is doing to it, and I'm vastly disappointed that the media seems content to sugar-coat everything and allow it to continue. Land of the free and home of the brave? I won't be standing for the national anthem until that's true again, and I certainly won't be pledging allegience to any damn flag. So. Disappointed.
Three kinds of people are commenting here. There are people who were squicked out by young stories, and there are people who support Jinn and there are people who are disgusted it has come to this.
Jinn's gotta do what Jinn's gotta do. But those of you who are relieved at the loss of a category need to re-examine why you come here. As so many others posted, what IS next? Will it be snuff that's banned? Cannibalism? Religious stories? Because as we all know, religion is also a hot button in American culture. Anyone who doesn't think it's fucked up that America is imposing restrictions on our right to say what we want and feel what we want and believe what we want is fucked up. It's one of the basic tenets of America's entire reason for existing. It's what America has proclaimed loudly and obnoxiously to the rest of the world. "We're the best, because we're TRULY free, unlike the rest of you schmucks!" (Not my words, just the impression America has given throughout the years.)
Just a thought, but doesn't today remind you a bit of McCarthyism? If you disagree with popular opinion, you're a communist! Today all you have to do is substitute "communist" with "terrorist", and that's that.
America scares me, because Americans elected this asshole. Thanks, fucknuts. Who are we going to pull out of our ass next time?
Back to the subject at hand: This sucks. I think Jinn's hands are tied (and not in a good way) and I think that is terrifying. It might be time to investigate another country that really does support personal freedoms. Or, at the very least, doesn't insist that they ARE all about freedom, while slowly taking away our basic rights.
Call up the firemen, because Big Brother is watching. My tone may be flippant, but you think I'm kidding? Because I'm not.
/rant
Best of luck with the war against terror-er... obscenity. The terrorists are attacking by way of obscene internet writing! Quick, tear down the Harry Potter fanfic before somebody notices!
Okay. Now, really. /rant
Please note that this isn't a personal attack on anyone who posted here. I'm just angry in general.
I loved practicing/reading about BDSM before I was 18. I'm 21 now, but that doesn't mean that I don't find what I did then erotic.
I find censorship of "young" erotica absurd for that very reason. Maybe some of you never had a single sexual thought before you were 18, but I strongly doubt that is the case for all of you.
Ya, so "exploitation of children" has another aspect. The part about some "children" considering themselves adults, or at the very least mature.
That said, I haven't had sex with anyone under 18 since around when I turned 18.
I do find the idea of sex with babies and children disgusting, much like scat, snuff, castration, and most other kinds of mutilation. But to paraphrase someone above, 'I'll still defend your right to write about it'
I'm rambling on. My point is that underage sex was one of the best parts of being under-age, and that was real life! What harm can come from a few stories?
Hi I`m an Dutch male and I follow the story`s for years now and they gave me lot of sattisfaction :p I don`t like story`s about canabalism mutalation
Im one of the most softhearted males walking this planet I did encounter story`s that are way over the top at first they made mine head turn and I stop reading further now I can read them and bits of it enjoy even I think those story`s are verry cruel but for me They have the right to exist because reality is much wurse I also believe that the justice system in mine country does more harm than the criminals itself yours is even wurse I know that lots of children have sex when there thirteen overhere and thats reality !and
accepted! With the net and television popstars movies etc corupting them ! I agree with you that you need to protect this site I`m grateful to all the people who wrote those stories I did like so much and some did contain underage people
I never saw an reason to became an member now I just did Thanks to all that put mine fantasies on paper as I would like to read them Ashtree Dari Ann Gray Freddy and manny more buit this wil not end by only underage story`s
mark mine words and its an damm shame !!!!
Darkside
Hi I`m an Dutch male and I follow the story`s for years now and they gave me lot of sattisfaction :p I don`t like story`s about canabalism mutalation
Im one of the most softhearted males walking this planet I did encounter story`s that are way over the top at first they made mine head turn and I stop reading further now I can read them and bits of it enjoy even I think those story`s are verry cruel but for me They have the right to exist because reality is much wurse I also believe that the justice system in mine country does more harm than the criminals itself yours is even wurse I know that lots of children have sex when there thirteen overhere and thats reality !and
accepted! With the net and television popstars movies etc corupting them ! I agree with you that you need to protect this site I`m grateful to all the people who wrote those stories I did like so much and some did contain underage people
I never saw an reason to became an member now I just did Thanks to all that put mine fantasies on paper as I would like to read them Ashtree Dari Ann Gray Freddy and manny more but this wil not end by only underage story`s
mark mine words and its an damm shame !!!!
Darkside
You're right. A child cannot consent. Good thing there aren't any of them in ANY of the stories posted herein. They're only words. Made up pieces of someone's imagination.Quote:
Originally Posted by bgirl69
And while we're on the topic of what's NOT BDSM, let's not forget the following story codes that also have no grounds in ANY BDSM relationship:
incest
snuff
high school (goes with that "young" code)
sci-fi
reluctant
mc
blackmail
torture
nc
extreme
violent
So, then, shall we not also remove all stories with these codes, too, in order to keep with the "SSC BDSM philosophy?" Or do we allow the artists and authors here some leeway to write FANTASY pieces that people with OPEN MINDS can read and enjoy?
In my view, you cannot have one without the other. If your pitch is that the young code doesn't involve any "real" BDSM, then you must also agree, by default, that all of those other codes must go, too. For, certainly, no one in a "real" SSC BDSM relationship would involve themselves with any of the activities depicted by those codes, would they?
Or perhaps it would just be easier to give reality a shot and realize that these are works of FICTION, featuring fictitious characters in fictitious settings performing fictitious acts, and that no REAL people are being involved in any way. Or would that be too easy?
Indeed. An excellent point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivale Ed
I, for one, find bestiality to be abhorrent. However, I do not shout from the faters that bestiality stories should all be removed because I don't personally care for them. I just don't read them. Easy as all that.
But if the legality is the issue, then it should be noted that nearly ever state in the US has laws against bestiality, too. I think Arkansas is the only state in which it is presently legal to fuck a goat. Shall we not remove the bestiality code as well?
IMO:
Fine, it is disgusting to have the idea of a full grown man having sex with a girl of 8 or 9 years. I see nothing wrong with the tales of the 16 year old high school girls. Most teens already have had sex by then anyway.
The rules off SSC are applied to people practicing BDSM, however a story is fantasy. Most are merely what people think about, not what anyone would or probably could actually do. That is; in many ways, a better thing to do, read or write about child sex, beastality, rape etc. than to go out and actually do it. Stories can provide a good escape for people and at least people are reading about it instead of doing it.
Now; however, this is Jinn's site, if he wants to remove underage stories he can. I support the decission with that.
Think about it this way, you either have the site without the underage stories or you let the government find the site with them and close it down. Take out a few of the stories or loose everything.
Hopefully when there is a re-election things will ease up; but until then it is in the best interests of the site to get rid of the underage stories.
Did anyone else see this:
'October 20, 2005 - Attorney General Alberto Gonzales has announced that his office will specifically target "bestiality, urination, defecation, as well as sadistic and masochistic behavior" in pursuing new obscenity prosecutions. The Department of Justice began recruiting in late July for a new anti-obscenity squad to pursue obscenity prosecutions...'
The full article is here
If they take this to its ultimate conclusion, no story site hosted within the US is safe...As usual, it is politicians looking for a soft target and a quick boost to their popularity, but it goes deeper than that. Start censoring the written word for the so-called "public good" and that's yet another freedom quietly eroded...it truly makes me shudder.
I was 19 or 20 the first time I came here, and a few of the stories I read involved juniors and seniors in high school.
Living in a jurisdiction where students starting prior to 1999 more often than not stayed a 5th year in high school, I didn't see anything odd or immoral in what I was doing. (To be fair though, my definition of immoral involves things like taking sides during the Cold War rather than saying "Fuck them all. I don't want to die for some worthless fascist in Washington or Moscow.")
As a Canadian, I watch what happens South of the border (and in Beijing, for that matter...I don't want them touching our oil reserves. I want our oil industry nationalisedm but I'd rather it belong to the private sector than to a foreign government intent on plundering our resources...Heh...And because I'm fascinated by Sino-Taiwanese politics and also because the politician I admire most is leftist Hong Kong democracy activist Leung Kwok-hung. Hugo Chavez comes in a close second, and I'm very keen on Spain's government as well. :D) very carefully, both selfishly (as a profitable small-stakes Internet poker player and as a regular reader of online erotica) and selflessly (As a committed secularist, civil libertarian, and social democrat), and I'm scared as all Hell of what's happening.
Thankfully, more Americans than not are starting to share my fears:
http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2005...tDirection.htm
Hell, even the Mor(m)ons are on board. I guess if you pray to Mormo enough, you really can become as smart as Ken Jennings. :D (I've had a serious hate-on for the bastards due to the cult's history of White supremacism and extreme social conservatism.)
As for what I read now? Mostly F/m romantic, with some M/f stuff and some non-romantic F/m stuff whenever I see something particularly interesting.
Based on what the grand inquisitor said, it appears that what Jinn is suggesting is too little and perhaps too late. I wonder who is advising him?If I were in his shoes I'd have to seriously consider shutting down the site and totally revamping it to weather the gathering storm. My guess is that he'd have to unilaterally close out well over fifty percent of the current material now archieved within the BDSM Library. There is no way that he can realistically force authors to totally gut their works just to conform to this latest bout of idiocy. On the other hand with the new Bush Supreme Court, it may very well be possible to effectively eliminate free speech in this country, a chilling thought. Does anyone remember the old Upton Sinclair book entitled "It Can't Happen Here"? Well children, you are witnessing the beginning of it happening here!Quote:
Originally Posted by nova
Hi, i think i look at this a bit fron aside, Im from spain ( so englosha is no t my primary language, Sorry for the errors)
I agree with jinn in that he has to do what he has to do, (give me please some time to dl all to the hd) as is his personal money and reputation what is at stake if police decides this site is to be taken down.
However, i think if the forces of law look a t the site child stories or not the site will go down im sorry about that but i think that is the truth. please seek a hosting out of the US asap if you want the site up for a long time.
Sorry guys, but you are letting them decide what you can think or fantasize about, that is my opinion.
Hugs all :)
Hmm.. the points about free will are true as well.
Though it is wise to get rid of the stories to protect the site; the gradual, or not so gradual wearing away of our rights is worrying.
Just like Guiller said 'you are letting them decide what you can think or fantasize about'. That is definatly something to think about, a new law can be put it to stop crime, anti-social behaviour, violence etc which just controls what we do. But the new laws now, are targeting more what we think about, trying to stop and BDSM thoughts by shutting down things to do with it.
Since America is supposed to be the most fair and free country in the world.. why is that laws can be put into place that get rid of so many rights.
Then there is the UK, another supposedly free country where the same is happening.
It really raises questions about the state of the world today.
When government in free and fair democracies are trying to change our rights and thoughts and fantasies it makes you wonder, is it really a free and fair democracy?
A very good point TG... I agree with what you are saying completely. However, aren't you just preaching to the converted? Here we all enjoy erotic fantasy--of one flavour or another--but what our opinions are of whether or not fiction is harmful don't really count in the long run. What counts is whether or not the stories are enough to provoke people who have the authority and power to cause troubles for Jinn.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDSM_Tourguide
Personally, any story with a 12-yr-old in it nauseates me... but a story about a kidnapped 17-yr-old is titillating. Both situations are illegal in real life, but one of those will invoke boundless rage and furor in most adults. You are right, Jinn can't take out every single story that involves something that is against R/L laws... that would be ridiculous, but I think making smaller changes to limit the chances that he becomes a target makes sense.
I see a lot of anti-censorship feeling in this thread... and I agree with you all 100%. I abhor censorship like any other kinkster, but in Jinn vs. the Gov't who do you think will win? I admire people who make a stand for what they believe in... but I like this site. I also believe strongly that I should have the right to smoke marijuana... and I'll do it walking down the street, or walking through the park without embarrassment...BUT, I don't to it in the mall, or on the steps of the local police station. I'd like to, but you have to be sensible sometimes in order to retain (most of) your freedom.
Ever since I started posting to this site these codes have been in existence. Naturally if they are there, it is only fair to assume that stories addressing these topics are acceptable to the site. Any argument with the logic so far? Now Jinn is proposing to remove the "young" code. What did young ever mean when the lower limit as defined by Jinn was thirteen! Guess what, most authors just put down "teen", since it's an issue of how many children can dance on the head of a pervert. Now the chickens are coming home to roost and Jinn still doesn't get it. He has to radically revise the codes and make sure that every author understands that there can be nothing outside of them. In parallel with that he has to pull out every story that violates the new guidelines. As for revising those being pulled out; that is moot at this point. I personally could care less, since I'm on record as refusing to comply with self censorship after the fact. Finally he has to absolutely refuse to post anything that is illustrated. I sit here in disbelief as Jinn crusades against "young" stories and is too busy and short-sighted to take down something like "To Obey" which will be the poster child when the inquisitors come for his site, pocketbook and personal freedom.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDSM_Tourguide
While I understand the idea that 1st amendment rights are primary to what makes the US great, nevertheless, child porn is disgusting on any level. Research has shown that pedos feed on stories and photos. They are not curable and they abuse children.
You can try to make yourself feel better about these kinds of stories by saying "they are just stories and don't hurt anyone," but you are only kidding yourself.
Thank you for removing them from this site.
Is this "filtering" of stories the reason there hasn't been an update on the front page with new stories?
Who knows? The site has been screwed up for better than two weeks, and no one seems to have noticed, which tells you something about the rank and file that claim to belong to this site. My guess is that the webmaster is running so scared right now, he hasn't the faintest idea about what to do. For example he claimed in his missive dated Oct. 14th, that within a week authors would be notified about which of their stories were to be removed from the site. That obviously has not happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by shdowrnnr
I also happen to think that he has been given some very bad advice about what is attracting the feds to sites such as his. If you read the Gonzalez handout, and he's the hatchet man for this witch hunt, you'll notice that child porn, whatever that is defined to be in this day and age, is not on his list of interests when it comes to the written word.
I think that Jinn just listened to the whinners and holier than thou types who spend most of their time wringing their lily white hands at those of us who are providing most of the muscle for this site, and bought into their agenda. Now he's screwed, because that doesn't seem to be the agenda of the guy running the witchhunt. What is however, is the stock and trade of this site. So it looks like we, the readers and authors, are the ones getting screwed. Also overlooked in the noise is the fact that Jinn's livlihood is hanging in the balance. If he has to gut the site to appease the feds he has to find some new way to make an honest living, and that probably means no BDSM Library since his advertisers will be running as scared as he is. It would be very interesting to hear from a few of the authors who are also hanging in the balance.