Sub Bribery?

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05-26-2005
her_Joe

Sub Bribery?

What do you think of bribery?

I'm working with my sub on improving self-concept and behaviors I would prefer and attempting a little behavior mod.

I wonder if the experienced members of the forum have any feedback for me on the advisability of good old bribery.

It worked to instill habits in my kids, both in reverse form ("If you don't do your homework, no TV") and in straight ("Pick up your room, and you can go to the movies.")

But My sub pita is, of course, an adult. Does it work for you?

Any consequences I may not be anticipating?

Thanks, Her_Joe
05-26-2005
allalone46

Quote:

Originally Posted by her_Joe

What do you think of bribery?

I'm working with my sub on improving self-concept and behaviors I would prefer and attempting a little behavior mod.

I wonder if the experienced members of the forum have any feedback for me on the advisability of good old bribery.

It worked to instill habits in my kids, both in reverse form ("If you don't do your homework, no TV") and in straight ("Pick up your room, and you can go to the movies.")

But My sub pita is, of course, an adult. Does it work for you?

Any consequences I may not be anticipating?

Thanks, Her_Joe

Don't bribe, reword or punishment is the norm.
05-26-2005
her_Joe

Quote:

Originally Posted by allalone46

Don't bribe, reword or punishment is the norm.

I guess I'm not clear -- if she knows the reward in advance, isn't that bribery?

And: why not?
05-26-2005
scandalous pleasure

I don't think it's bribery in this context. . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by her_Joe

I guess I'm not clear -- if she knows the reward in advance, isn't that bribery?

And: why not?

Bribery implies something illicit, illegal, outside the bounds, like paying off the health inspector to not see the rodent droppings on the floor of the kitchen. (EEEECK!)

In the context of parenting, I think of it as bribery when I promise my kids something they don't really need and haven't earned just to get them off my back. (I still do it, though--parenting wears one down, doesn't it? :) )

When they've "been good" and followed the rules with the clear understanding in advance that they will be rewarded, I just consider that to be positive attention and I think most of the "experts" don't have a problem with that.

In the context of your relationship, I think what you are talking about is rewards and it's one of the ways of making you both happy, so I can't see that it is wrong. (It does make you happy, too, right?) As long as you don't feel manipulated by her into giving her these rewards andias long as she really earns them, presumably by serving you, submitting to you, attending to you, etc.

And, on that note, I'm sure we would all *love* to hear exaclty how she earns these rewards--and what they are!

--SP
05-26-2005
allalone46

and besides

Quote:

Originally Posted by her_Joe

I guess I'm not clear -- if she knows the reward in advance, isn't that bribery?

And: why not?

Add to all that is in the above line to this thred add this. Bribery in this context, is only a reword if something is done with out consequenses or punishment. Howevr reward and punishment is just that if not done or noy done to the sadisfaction of the master than punishment is to be administered not the reward.
05-27-2005
His_little one

As a submissive and a student of psychology I would have to say "bribing" your sub to do something is one of the worst things you can do.
A sub should want to do something for their Dom because of the way it makes them feel knowing they gave pleasure to their Dom -- that's part of the role. This reward should strictly be the warm cozy intrinsic feeling of "I'm a good sub because i made my Dom happy". I don't agree that children should be bribed with money for good grades or TV for finishing their dinner. This only teaches them to do these things because of the "material reward" and gets too far away from the real reasons they should be doing these things. Same principle for a submissive. We do things and behave in ways that please our Dom's -- that in itself is the reward. To me this is what being a sub is all about. I am rewarded by the way my Dom looks at me, holds me, kisses me, etc when I've done something for him or to please him -- it's why aftercare exists. If i endured an especially difficult scene, being rewarded with a bubble bath, romantic dinner or something of the sorts afterwards may be a nice perk - but i would never want to enter a scene with that as a thought in my head and getting those things has to be "special" not something i expect after every scene.

This may have something do with how i see punishment. Yes, i can enjoy pain but i am not a sub that seeks out punishments just to get spanked -- if i want that, I'll ask for it. I also don't believe in a punishment having to happened because i did something wrong. The thought that i brought displeasure or disappointment or anything of the sorts to my Dom is a more miserable experience than anything he could dish out to me. I see punishment as a way for us to move past it together -- he acknowledges that I've done something wrong and the action of the punishment is more so taking that guilt and worry away from me, because i know when the punishment is over, he's forgiven me therefore, i can forgive myself and together we can move past it and forget about it.
05-27-2005
Adamoverjules

Quote:

Originally Posted by His_little one

As a submissive and a student of psychology I would have to say "bribing" your sub to do something is one of the worst things you can do.
A sub should want to do something for their Dom because of the way it makes them feel knowing they gave pleasure to their Dom -- that's part of the role. This reward should strictly be the warm cozy intrinsic feeling of "I'm a good sub because i made my Dom happy". I don't agree that children should be bribed with money for good grades or TV for finishing their dinner. This only teaches them to do these things because of the "material reward" and gets too far away from the real reasons they should be doing these things. Same principle for a submissive. We do things and behave in ways that please our Dom's -- that in itself is the reward. To me this is what being a sub is all about. I am rewarded by the way my Dom looks at me, holds me, kisses me, etc when I've done something for him or to please him -- it's why aftercare exists. If i endured an especially difficult scene, being rewarded with a bubble bath, romantic dinner or something of the sorts afterwards may be a nice perk - but i would never want to enter a scene with that as a thought in my head and getting those things has to be "special" not something i expect after every scene.

This may have something do with how i see punishment. Yes, i can enjoy pain but i am not a sub that seeks out punishments just to get spanked -- if i want that, I'll ask for it. I also don't believe in a punishment having to happened because i did something wrong. The thought that i brought displeasure or disappointment or anything of the sorts to my Dom is a more miserable experience than anything he could dish out to me. I see punishment as a way for us to move past it together -- he acknowledges that I've done something wrong and the action of the punishment is more so taking that guilt and worry away from me, because i know when the punishment is over, he's forgiven me therefore, i can forgive myself and together we can move past it and forget about it.

wow...all I can say is whoever finds this perfect girl must be very lucky....oh...wait...she's mine already! :D
(sorry, but I just had to, I couldn't help myself)
05-27-2005
her_Joe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamoverjules

wow...all I can say is whoever finds this perfect girl must be very lucky....oh...wait...she's mine already! :D
(sorry, but I just had to, I couldn't help myself)

LOL, very nice. NIce to meet you both.

Her_Joe
05-27-2005
her_Joe

Quote:

Originally Posted by His_little one

As a submissive and a student of psychology I would have to say "bribing" your sub to do something is one of the worst things you can do.
A sub should want to do something for their Dom because of the way it makes them feel knowing they gave pleasure to their Dom -- that's part of the role.

Thank you, His_little one. Your argument is concise and well thought out, and exactly why I asked the question. I'm not about to argue with you.

Instead, let me make the type of situation clearer as I'm not talking about scenes or trying to provoke a specific, single task. What I want to do is to change an entire set of attitudes and a lifelong pattern of thinking.

As a student of psychology I know you've heard of behavior mod. and I'm trying to employ it to reshape a way of thinking.

If the sub is engaged in a pattern of self-destructive behaviors and attitudes, and has been for her entire life, it seems to me cruel and not very helpful to punish her bad habits. I can say "Quit that" but is it reasonable to expect someone to change a lifelong habit with a direction?

My question about bribing comes from a hope that I could, through rewarding (bribing) her each time she self-corrects her bad habits, and let her know ahead of time that she stands to gain pleasure (in the form of pleasing me immensely, and sometimes other things in addition) that I will do a better job of helping her to grow to her potential than I would by simply directing her toward my wishes and relying on her good nature to get her past a lifetime of bad habits and attitudes.

Your reaction? Does that change your position at all? Or am I still not getting it?

her_Joe
05-27-2005
scandalous pleasure

We all have different motivations and respond in different ways to different stimuli. Some people are motivated to do something by the inherent worth of doing that particular thing (like the joy His Little One gets from the simple act of serving her master) but others don't. (In my opinion, that doesn't work for most people.) Otherwise noone would need a paycheck to go to work and our capitalist system would fall apart.

I don't believe it is wrong to motivate people with rewards--it works for kids in classrooms, dogs at obedience schools, and executives in boardrooms.

As far as whether it is legit in the context of your DS relationship, that depends on *your* DS relationship and not some arbitrary ideal of service.

Frankly, I don't sub to serve. I've served lots of people all my life in a hundred different capacities and I'm a nice helpful person, but I sub sexually because it is intensely erotic for me and my partner(s).

Ultimately, if it works for you and it works for her, helps her with her issues and also makes you happy--what's the harm?
05-28-2005
His_little one

her_Joe, your post made things a little clearer for me - and yes, i am very familiar with the concept of behavior modification. I myself am not a behaviorist so i do not favor forms of conditioning or behavior modification - i think they can be potentially very damaging to ones intrinsic motivation. I do, however, think that it CAN be done and CAN be effective if done properly. I obviously don't understand the scope of behavior you are trying to modify and that makes it hard to effectively give you my advice. The only time i would recommend such a method of conditioning is if they are life threatening behaviors or if they are severely detrimental to her every day life and even then i would only recommend it in very moderate levels and paired with your unconditional love and support. She shouldn’t think she’s going to get something material every time she behaves in an acceptable manner, she should, however, get much praise from you and that should entice her intrinsically. Eventually this should lead to her behaving in a way without reliance on material goods. She needs to understand why her behaviors are wrong and detrimental to herself or others- and that such behaviors are not acceptable for whatever reason. THAT needs to be why she stops that behavior - not “well if i do this, or i don’t do that, I’ll get _____" Her pleasing you does not even need to be looked at in a D/s manner -- just knowing you support her and are trying to help her grow and get over these behaviors should help her. But i can't stress how important it is that the ONLY reason she not engages in these behaviors is to get a material item in the end. You need to get to the root of why she behaves the way she does – only then can you begin to fix the problem. Jumping ahead to bribery and ignoring the root of the problem only will make matters worse and will only cause her to resort back to such behaviors when she becomes “bored” of the rewards you offer her.
I understand that dogs, CEO’s, and children can be bribed with money, trips, toys, and treats but just because something works doesn't make it right - or ethical for that matter. Rewards of money and material items have become a crutch for too many people such that they won't and can't not only behave but be effective without them. Don't get me wrong, i don’t sub to serve - I as well am a helpful person and love the feeling i get from knowing i helped -and knowing that it made a difference – I feel that everyday of my life because of my profession. I do sub because it takes both Adam and I to a whole new level of erotic intensity we wouldn’t otherwise be able to share. Its about a deeper meaning of trust, passion, and reliance.