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I was reading the newest comments in the thread about abuse and bdsm and I wondered if people who engage in corporal punishment as a part of their D/s bdsm lifestyle are less likely to physically punish their children. I have no idea because all the people I know in the lifestyle are childless. Also, the consensus in that thread seems to be that abuse during childhood is not a determinating factor in becoming attracted to D/s bdsm. Could bdsm, however, be a factor in preventing abuse?
I have two grown daughters Nikka and corporal punishment was used as necesary--more so on the bad seed :) Now is your definition of corporal punishment a hand to the clothed butt? Cause they got that a LOT. I don't consider that abuse when it's warrented and no amount of verbal or non-corporal punishment gets through to them. Now I'm not into the bdsm lifestyle as the be all, end all, 24/7 thing--rather just enjoy many facets of it. When dealing with my kids, I can say there never was a connection so would offer that bdsm is neither a factor for nor against abuse.
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Originally posted by Jones, Nikka
I was reading the newest comments in the thread about abuse and bdsm and I wondered if people who engage in corporal punishment as a part of their D/s bdsm lifestyle are less likely to physically punish their children. I have no idea because all the people I know in the lifestyle are childless. Also, the consensus in that thread seems to be that abuse during childhood is not a determinating factor in becoming attracted to D/s bdsm. Could bdsm, however, be a factor in preventing abuse?
My daughters are ages 8, 13, and soon-to-be-15. Discipline is not a big issue; we've raised them to be iconclasts like their parents, so we avoided many of the usual parent-child conflicts.Quote:
Originally posted by Jones, Nikka
I was reading the newest comments in the thread about abuse and bdsm and I wondered if people who engage in corporal punishment as a part of their D/s bdsm lifestyle are less likely to physically punish their children. I have no idea because all the people I know in the lifestyle are childless. Also, the consensus in that thread seems to be that abuse during childhood is not a determinating factor in becoming attracted to D/s bdsm. Could bdsm, however, be a factor in preventing abuse?
When they do screw up, the worst punishment is taking away computer time. When one daughter forged a report card, I deleted all her Diablo 2 characters; that had more influence than any swat on the butt. :)
I suspect most people here would say that BDSM practiced by an angry dom is abuse -- the dom is meeting their own need for retribution, at the expense of the sub.
Corporal punishment is more about releasing the parent's anger than it is about disciplining a child. I have smacked my kids on the but a few times, to emphasize a [point -- but I've found far more effective methods that teach lessons (don't waste time on games when you should be studying.)
Our kids are now grown at 22 and 23 but to be honest I have nevr connected the two things in my mind. Our kids were never really disciplined by hitting. They had a slap on the wrist to teach about safety such as fingers into plug sockets etc but I agree with the withdrawal of priviliges.
The fact that we as parents dabble in spanking etc does not mean the we abused our kids. It means that we have discovered something that we as adults enjoy...nothing more and nothing less.
I am a new poster here and this is really the first time that I have joined a discussion like this. It is so refreshing to be able to talk about this type of thing with other like minded people. Have to admit that I was nervous about joining this site...it's not as if it's a run of the mill site. But have been so impressed with the whole thing here.
Lyn:)
My daughters are now 23 and 22, and corporal punishment, in the accepted sense, was never used to discipline them. While I am convinced that we were very lucky to have two kids who did not need much discipline, we always used discussion and withdrawal of privileges to deal with the occasional problems.
But I so agree with the comment by Shadoom about corporal punishment releasing the parent's anger. The extremely rare times that I (or My very vanilla wife) smacked them was when we were so scared at what they had done (say ... not looking when crossing a road) that our reaction was one of anger. Immediately after an incident such as that, the resulting discussion would have far more affect because the child was so aware of how important the matter was, because a smack was so very unusual.
Therefore, apart from the very occasional instant loss of temper that almost anybody can experience at times in their lives, I think that the type of control needed to raise children without corporal punishment is very similar to the control that is needed as a Dom.
Which presumably means that I think that practising BDSM could well be a factor in preventing abuse.
Which is interesting because when I started this reply I was going to say that it made no difference. :confused:
I am inclined.........no, I strongly disagree with this statement. I am a firm believer in discipline of various sorts. I think a lot of it depends on the child and how hardheaded he or she may be, or the severity of the action that warranted the discipline. I have a three year old son and I do spank him and believe me, it is not because he does not need it. However, I make certain that when I do inflict physical punishment upon him, I am not angry. Normally I will make him go to his room and we will talk about what he did before I spank him to make sure he understands why is getting a spanking, then we talk more afterwards to make sure he knows that I am serious about what I am telling him, and the we spend quite a bit of time hugging and playing afterwards. I feel that when I use this method, he knows he is getting a spanking, he knows I am consistent and what I say is what I mean, but he also knows that I love him.Quote:
Originally posted by Shadoom
Corporal punishment is more about releasing the parent's anger than it is about disciplining a child.
I do realize that there is a fine line between discipline and abuse and too often we find that many parents cross the line because it is a release of anger.........but just because a parent spanks his or her child does not mean that it is always a release of anger. I know I got my fair share of spankings as a child and I think I turned out ok, and I can assure you, many of the spankings I received was nothing more than release of anger.....but I still knew my parents loved me.
And to answer your question Nikka.....no, I personally do not think BDSM has any relation to how we rear our children. There is a definite difference in spanking for fun and enjoyment or discipline because it excites us sexually and spanking your children....at least for me. I like the comment lynangel made when she said, 'we have discovered something that we as adults enjoy...nothing more and nothing less.' I could not agree more.
As being one who was constantly subjected to "Corporal punishment", I can defiantly say in my case it was due to my father's upbringing and how he saw life and how he should raise me. He was a miserable man who hated life and what it did to him despite his so-called religious beliefs.
Did I deserve the punishment maybe, but where do you draw the line. Is spanking ok, or how about spanking with a shoe, or hitting your kid with your fist? Where do we stop, and say that's abuse and punishment. Or maybe not letting the child eat at the same table with the rest of the family for a month.
So having gone through that I made a promise to wife, son and myself that I would never lay a hand on him and neither has she. And so far he's turned out just fine. It's amazing what timeouts does to a kid or giving him/her a red X if they do something wrong, meaning no TV or something he/she loves to do.
Now to answer the question did it lead me to BDSM no to tell you the truth my wife has.
I’ve been quiet for sometime now, you might want to say I was “Finding Myself” or what ever, but I promise if there is something that tickles my fancy I’ll post.
I have always gone by Bertrand Russell's rule: "never strike a child except in anger". Children can understand a lash out when someone has been pushed too far, it's an expression of feelings and it passes along with the anger. It's calculated punishments that teach them that violence is acceptable.
We obvously have a range of opinions on childrearing here just as anywhere else, but I'd hope that practicing BDSMers have their issues with pain and violence sufficiently worked out that they can keep them separate from parenting. It's people who haven't accepted their own feelings who are likely to beat a child and call it punishment because they can't admit to themselves that they enjoy beating people.
Well now, I just have to take exception to that. I'm from the John Rosemond school of child raising and I see nothing wrong with giving a child a pop on the butt to get his attantion and show him you're serious.
I was spanked four times when I was a child and three of them were deserved. Obviously they made a pretty big impression on me, since I can remember each of them.
Since you're throwing around names, leo, I'd have to say that it's people who refuse to be parents to their children who refuse to spank when it's warranted. Too many parents these days want to be their child's friend, when that's not their job and it does them a serious disservice.
I'm very sorry that I gave you the impression that I was impugning the motives of people who spank children. I had intended to make it clear that I respect other people's opinions on that.Quote:
Originally posted by Curtis
Well now, I just have to take exception to that. I'm from the John Rosemond school of child raising and I see nothing wrong with giving a child a pop on the butt to get his attantion and show him you're serious.
I was spanked four times when I was a child and three of them were deserved. Obviously they made a pretty big impression on me, since I can remember each of them.
Since you're throwing around names, leo, I'd have to say that it's people who refuse to be parents to their children who refuse to spank when it's warranted. Too many parents these days want to be their child's friend, when that's not their job and it does them a serious disservice.
What I was trying to suggest was that there may be some people in the vanilla world who do it out of sadistic impulses that they can't acknowledge. But I explicitly excluded those of us here who recognise and accept our feelings, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that this was the only reason.
For what it's worth, I've probably smacked my children that many times. I just didn't plan on it.
I think spanking's fine.
A woman last night was in my place of business with her four-year-old daughter who was having tantrums and making mom's life hard. I heard her speak to her daughter in a low, steady voice. I'm paraphrasing, but here's what she said:
"You don't talk to me like that, Amy. You know that's not right. You're going to get a spanking."
The little girl said back, "Don't spank me!" It wasn't a tearful protest, it was a willfull one. Reminded me of a certain friend, actually. Then the mother picked up her daughter and took her to the restroom. After a five minute absence, they both came back. The daughter was particularly silent but didn't look distressed. She wasn't humiliated publicly.
Parents should (and, IMHO, must) administer discipline that is just but firm. Kids should understand at an early age that actions have consequences... but they should also learn that might doesn't make right. And they should know that their parents would never hit them to satisfy their own anger. It should be a controlled act of caring, not an adult version of that same tantrum.
I understand what you are saying, and unfortunately I am not familiar with Mr. Russell, or his work. But I have to say I can not agree with the above statement.Quote:
Originally posted by leo9
I have always gone by Bertrand Russell's rule: "never strike a child except in anger".
If anything it should read “never strike in anger!” and that would apply on any situation. I think Garry’s example is the prime – mother did not even got really upset. There need to be rules and consequences if the rules are not followed. Be it spanking, time out or deprivation of rights (taking away favourite toy or revoking of privilege to go out), I believe it is up to a parent to decide what works the best with the child in question. The main rule is be persistent. If one lets child get away with something at one time and at another the child gets punished – the child is confused – and has full right to be.
On the other hand, what are you teaching this young person if you do strike in anger? That beating someone if you are angry is right? And what is the consequence of your teachings? Next wife or husband beater?
Anyway, this is just my personal opinion.
I agree with you entirely, I don't think anger is any justification and is perhaps the worst reason for hitting your child. I am not a parent but get exposed to bad parenting a fair bit through my work. I have seen kids that have been hit so many times that the threat or act of violence no longer has any influence on them ( not in a discliplining way anyway ). I think there are much more effective ways to punish someone ( as I'm sure most people interested in this site must have considerable insight into !) the erasing of characters on the video game was inspired, I'm sure that would serve as a much more lasting reminder than a quick slap.
Sorry to have gotten into this so late...I assume people are still reading this thread...
Anyways, as a parent my simple rule is this - there is never any place or any justification for a big person hitting a little person! Sorry...but to me a resort to physical punishment of our kids is a reflection of our own laziness or (as in the case of my father) our needs to be powerful.
I'd never punish my sub/slave in the midst of my anger...sure as hell would not do it with my kid.
What the BDSM arena teaches us is the central place of consent. Kids do not and cannot consent to being smacked or belted or slapped on the wrist - they don't have the capacity for it. But I would be wrong to believe I was able to make that kind of choice for my daughter...especially when being spanked in that kind of setting is all about the wrong kind of power...its painful, humiliating and disempowering...
Now that's off my chest...where's that slave of mine gotten to?
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Originally posted by Shadoom
Corporal punishment is more about releasing the parent's anger than it is about disciplining a child.
I couldn't agree with you less about that. If I was to use corporal punishment on my daughter, I can guarantee that it wouildn't be because she's making me mad, it would be to let her know that she should quickly alter her behavior.
However, I also realize that corporal punishment is only necessary for certain reasons and that most situations could be resolved by other means. Still, that being said, if my child is acting like a real brat, she might get a swat on the bum to remind her that daddy doesn't think that's a good way for her to act.
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Originally posted by redEva
On the other hand, what are you teaching this young person if you do strike in anger? That beating someone if you are angry is right? And what is the consequence of your teachings? Next wife or husband beater?
Exactly. Violence breeds violence. Kind of like stupidity breeds stupidity. If you only hit your child when you are angry, then they will learn to hit when they are angry, too.
well put TG!
I suppose I should just tell myself that I've already had my say and leave it at that, but of course that would be too reasonable. This is more or less a rebuttal of jaro's post.
"What the BDSM arena teaches us is the central place of consent. Kids do not or cannot consent to being smacked or belted or slapped on the wrist - they don't have the capacity for it. But I would be wrong to believe that I was able to make that kind of choice for my daughter...especially when being spanked in that kind of setting is all about the wrong kind of power...it's painful, humiliating and disempowering..."
We are talking about punishing your child, aren't we? Punishments don't require consent, although they do demand judicious application. You can't only hand out punishments to your daughter that she consents to. Most children aren't mature enough to agree that they need punishing at all (as you say, they don't have the capacity for it), but then again, most adults also don't consent to being punished, and if they do they're rarely allowed to determine their own punishment (the truth of this statement would depend upon how you categorize plea bargaining, I suppose).
And how is spanking a child whose behavior won't be modified in any other way the wrong kind of power? Bush, Jr. invading Iraq on trumped up charges is the wrong use of power, but Bush, Sr. liberating Kuwait was an enormously appropriate use of power, and Clinton's failure to intervene in Rwanda was at least as important a misuse of power as Bush, Jr.'s . My niece needs desperately to be spanked, and my sister's failure to do so is a terrible misuse of power. The older that child gets, the worse she behaves, and it's my sister's fault for abdicating her responsibility, just as Clinton did. With great power comes great responsibility, and all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing, if I may commingle two appropriate quotes. In the parent/child relationship, the parent has the power, and if they refuse to use their power for good they do the child no favors.
If a punishment is painful, then it's more memorable and more likely to have a lasting impact (less likely to need repeating). Spanking doesn't need to be humiliating; if you do it in the aisle of a grocery store, a hallway in a museum, or in the middle of a church service then it would be, of course, but if you do it in a room with the door shut and just the two of you there, it's far less humiliating than being made to sit in a corner. Disempowerment is simply a given. If a punishment empowers your daughter, it's hard to see how it qualifies as a punishment at all.
So, I looked up "punish" in my Webster's New Universal Unabridged and this is what I found: "1. to subject to pain, loss, confinement, death, etc. as a penalty for some offense, transgression or fault 2. to inflict a penalty for (an offense, fault, etc.)" and a few more that are less germane. I'm afraid there's not much help in here, since these definitions would seem to equally support both of our positions.
At any rate, a spanking is not a beating, nor is it smacking a kid around, and it's always the punishment of last resort. In my experience, guilt is the punishment of first resort, and after the age of five or so, it's usually very effective.
Thank you for reviving this thread.
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Originally posted by Curtis
Punishments don't require consent, although they do demand judicious application.
Precisely. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that punishments should be non-consensual, even though none of the definitions deliberately say so. It is in the context, though, if you read it. "1. to subject to pain, loss, confinement, death, etc. as a penalty for some offense, transgression or fault 2. to inflict a penalty for (an offense, fault, etc.)"
Subject and inflict are not terms that one normally would associate with consent. Besides, in terms of the logic set down by someone consenting to punishment, one would have to look at the entirity of the judicial system and wonder why the accused are not allowed to decide their own terms for punishment. Punishment is to be subjected, as by a jury, within a set guideline of predetermined parameters of acceptability. That is why the law sets higher sentences for worse crimes and why parents usually follow the same type of practice.
I wouldn't punish my daughter physically for breaking a vase or turning over a lamp, but I would give her a swat if she were acting up in public, because I would want her to stop what she's doing at once and not for my own sake, but for the sake of the people around me as well. I've heard enough children screaming through the aisles of the Wal-Mart toy section to know that other people do not appreciate people that allow their children to be completely misbehaved in public. If a slap on the wrist or a thump on the bum lets her know not to act that way in public the next time she's out, then I have no problem with it.
I agree whole heartedly. Spanking a child teaches them nothing except that the person with the bigger hand and the stronger arm wins. I can understand losing your temper and smacking a child in anger, I don't condone it but, I can understand it. Everyone has lost their temper at one time or another. Cooling yourself off and then deciding that spanking is your punishment of choice suggests to me that you are a brute.Quote:
Originally posted by leo9
<snip>I have always gone by Bertrand Russell's rule: "never strike a child except in anger". Children can understand a lash out when someone has been pushed too far, it's an expression of feelings and it passes along with the anger. It's calculated punishments that teach them that violence is acceptable. <snip>
I have a 6 year old, she is willful, as all 6 year olds are, I have never spanked her, and her father has never spanked her. She misbehaves in public occasionally and I speak to her about her behaviour. If she cannot control herself, we leave. It is not always convenient for me but, she is not here to be a convenience. She misbehaves at home sometimes too, refusing to help with chores or come when called or harassing me when I am on the telephone; I send her to her room and shut the door. She can come out when she is prepared to behave in a civilised manner. She knows this. We rarely have problems. I rarely raise my voice and I am hardly ever angry with her. She does not whine for toys or candy at the grocery store or toy store. I tell her when she asks that we are not shopping for that today. She continues to look at the coveted item but, has learned that I don't change my mind and that whining will not get her what she wants. She is not an easy child. She is a handful and takes a lot of energy, some people would classify her as hyperactive but, she knows what the rules are and I help her to remember them in a calm way.
I have friends who spank their children and I have to admit that my warm and fuzzy feelings for them are less than they were before I knew that they were spankers. I am a proactive parent. No one will ever be able to say that my child is undisciplined and that her parents don't have rules. To say that a child "needs" to be spanked makes me want to cry. How can any sane person think that pain and violence is an appropriate response to a child?
For those of you who aren't sure, this is of course my opinion. You don't have to agree with it, hell, you don't even have to read it.
What pray tell do you think you are teaching a child if you hit them when you are not angry?Quote:
Originally posted by BDSM_Tourguide
Exactly. Violence breeds violence. Kind of like stupidity breeds stupidity. If you only hit your child when you are angry, then they will learn to hit when they are angry, too.
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Originally posted by justlola
What pray tell do you think you are teaching a child if you hit them when you are not angry?
I would think that you are teaching them that when you hit someone out of anger, you're not in control. I would rather spank someone, child or no, when I am settled down from whatever has made me agry, mostly because by then I realize I really don't need to spank that person and some other bit of discipline will work a lot better and carry a better message.
What you're not teaching them is to start hitting every time they get angry at someone. You're also not teaching them how to abuse when they get older.
Hey, I agree with spanking, but I only agree to it when it's one swat on the bum or maybe two. When you haul out a belt and beat them for minutes at a time while you're pissed off at them, then you're not giving them discipline and you're not giving them punishment, you're abusing them in just the same way that you would be abusing an adult if you struck them out of anger.
I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree. We aren't talking about consentual spanking between partners here, we are talking about physically hurting a child who is supposed to look to you for love and support and safety. If you lose control and hit them, once or twice, you teach them that you are human and made a mistake and that your emotions got away from you. If you hit them when calm cool and collected, you teach them that you are going to hurt them when you like. I can't believe that that is what you really mean to instill in your children.
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Originally posted by justlola
I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree. We aren't talking about consentual spanking between partners here, we are talking about physically hurting a child who is supposed to look to you for love and support and safety. If you lose control and hit them, once or twice, you teach them that you are human and made a mistake and that your emotions got away from you. If you hit them when calm cool and collected, you teach them that you are going to hurt them when you like. I can't believe that that is what you really mean to instill in your children.
Ummm... Actually, I think the reverse is true.
We can agree to disagree if you want, that's all good with me, but speaking from experience and education, striking someone out of anger only makes them not want to be around you and makes them walk on eggshells while they are around you.
If you just give them a little pop on the butt when they're acting up, and not when you're mad, then you kind of get the point across, without having to go into long speeches about time-outs and groundings and all that, that they should stop what they're doing right away.
Discipline, whether of a child or an adult, should not be about venting your own anger, it should be about modifying behaviour. If you just beat someone because you're mad at them and want to hurt them, then you're abusing them. As children go, if you give them one little pop when they're acting up, you're getting the point across that you mean business right then and there.
I would never hit my child in anger. This teaches the child that no matter what they are upset about, hitting is the solution. This makes them into bullies.
I will spank my child, yes, but not when I am angry because if I punish when I am angry, I run the risk of hurting her. That is where shaken baby syndrom. People handing out punishment when they are too angry to think straight. I will use spankings as a last resort or a quick smack on the behind when she is acting out in public to let her know that if she does not smarten up, there will be more to come later.
This reminds me what my little cousin said to his mom after he lost his game boy.
Cousin: "mom, can I have my spanking now?"
Mom: Confused "Spanking? What spanking?"
Cousin: "Well, it doesn't hurt as much when you're not mad."
Just a funny little story I'd though I'd sahre.
Exactly FF...you don't hit out of anger...but sometimes its necessary when you're raising a child. Sorry if it offends anyone, but I collectively have 23 years of child raising experience. Sometimes the "counting to 10 method" and "time out" method" just don't work. I think you do the child a service by establishing the rules early on.
The best discipline I ever learned in my life was in boot camp with the Marine Corps. I am by no means a robot or subserviant to anyone...but the experience taught me how to follow direction of those superior to me and with more knowledge than me when appropriate. And the result of that experience was that it taught me how to be a good leader when appropriate.
Oh shit...I'm on a tangent...isn't this a BDSM site???
haha tangent. Yes but you are on topic!
I was spanked as a child, though not very often. It was reserved for when I had really done something wrong. More often than not I was sent to my room without supper. But my room was not like kid's rooms today. I did not have a tv, no games, just my bed, some books and a few toys (ones that I usually didn't play with) so being sent to my room really was a punishment, not a vacation.
My dad only had to spank me once. After that, all he had to do was "give me the look." My mom even broke a wooden spoon over my butt but that was when I got mad and stomped in one of my drawers and busted out the bottom. Not that she hit me hard it was just an old spoon. :p
Now what gets me is that people will call child services on you if they find out you spank your children.
For example. My dad was in the grocery store at the checkout behind this man and his little girl. The little girl was throwing a temper tantrum in the store. Finally having had enough, the father smacked her on her bum, not hard, but just hard enough to let his daughter know that enough was enough. She stopped. When he left the store, the cashier phoned child services! If I were my father, I would have told her to mind her own business!