Online (vs) Reallife

[Brosco]

To Brosco: You asked the question, my friend. To then state that someone not dare suggest something is rather close-minded of you I think. Edmund is entitled to his opinion that online is a pale comparison to r/l. Just as you are entitled to your opinion that you achieve more than many real-lifers do. Both inflamatory statements if heard through defensive ears.

Aesop, I am truly sorry if you saw my post as imflamatory. It was definitely not my intention. I have tried very hard to express my opinions as exactly that - my opinion and what works for me. I never get 'defensive' about another expressing an opinion (no matter how negative to mine) providing that opinion is about themselves. I DO get defensive when people take opinions and tastes of their own and attempt to judge all others by it. I DO get defensive when someone belittles my tastes based on their own tastes.

I apologise for any disruption you feel I may have caused, but please check my posts again and you will see that I always expressed my views in the context of myself, not about others. You may also note that my 'defensive' reply was to a post that judged others.

Brosco

[Aesop]

Aesop, I am truly sorry if you saw my post as imflamatory. It was definitely not my intention. I have tried very hard to express my opinions as exactly that - my opinion and what works for me. I never get 'defensive' about another expressing an opinion (no matter how negative to mine) providing that opinion is about themselves. I DO get defensive when people take opinions and tastes of their own and attempt to judge all others by it. I DO get defensive when someone belittles my tastes based on their own tastes.

I apologise for any disruption you feel I may have caused, but please check my posts again and you will see that I always expressed my views in the context of myself, not about others. You may also note that my 'defensive' reply was to a post that judged others.

Brosco

No need to apologize Brosco. While it's true that you express your views in the context of yourself, saying you have achieved something more than many real lifers is going to trigger the same kind of defensive response in some others that Edmund's post triggered in you and I have to say that while Edmund did indeed post his opinions globally he did not post them personally. You did in your responses. You are of course allowed to find his opinion offensive if you do, but I question the need to insult him.

I disagree. It is very easy for someone to state that something doesn't work for themselves without suggesting it couldn't possibly work for anyone.

You're right. I didn't say that though. I said they have a right to think something just doesn't work. Not just for themselves, but for anybody and that by definition is global.

This is the last I'll say on the matter as I don't think things have gotten that bad and want to keep the thread moving.

Have fun folks.

[Ozme52]

Without going through all posts to find all the quotes I need, I would like to summarize a little here. Oz, I can understand and accept that you believe that you need more. I would never try to convince you (or anyone else) that another can get all they need from an online relationship. My disagreement with you is that in several places you have taken your beliefs about yourself and stated them as fact for others. I have clearly stated that online is not for everyone, but attempted to explain how online is giving fantasssy and I all we need.

I guess what got me started was how the responses to my comment about my feelings... was disagreement. I read that as... "You're wrong for feeling that way." LOL So I probably was first to over react... but overall, and for the most part, I thought it a lively debate. I was just defending how I felt... not attacking how others felt, but admit to pressing your own comments in my own defense. Perhaps too much debate background...

I disagree with you on this. If I take your argument to its logical conclusion you are suggesting that a blind or deaf person is unable to have as satisfying a relationship as yourself. If you have ever had any dealings with a person who has lost one of their primary senses you quickly realise that their other senses have increased in capacity, the loss in one area is fully compensated by the other.

Hardly the "logical conclusion." But certainly a possible conclusion. I wouldn't say that a person who lacks or has lost one of the primary senses can't have a satisfying relationship. But I would say, without prejudice, it is different than what I experience. Who's to say it isn't in fact, better... save that, as I pointed out to Tojo, language is qualitative. Perhaps, an enhanced sense of touch provides a superior interaction.

Recent health studies point out the benefits of sex with a partner provides a health benefit that mere solo sexual release doesn't duplicate. It just supports my belief that evolution has made us a social animal, one that requires contact.

[Brosco]

Hardly the "logical conclusion." But certainly a possible conclusion. I wouldn't say that a person who lacks or has lost one of the primary senses can't have a satisfying relationship. But I would say, without prejudice, it is different than what I experience. Who's to say it isn't in fact, better... save that, as I pointed out to Tojo, language is qualitative. Perhaps, an enhanced sense of touch provides a superior interaction.

That is the only point I was trying to make. It is impossible to decide what is 'better' for another. It is impossible to say that 'what I have is better than someone else'. We can only decide for ourselves what is best for us.

Recent health studies point out the benefits of sex with a partner provides a health benefit that mere solo sexual release doesn't duplicate. It just supports my belief that evolution has made us a social animal, one that requires contact.

A recent survey found that 91.7531% of all statistics determined by surveys were inaccurate.
__________________

[Brosco]

BTW Aesop, don't bother to warn me again, I won't bother exchanging with this clown (see his avatar) again.

It is very sad to see just after your 'wolf pack' post. I want all to realise that I have no problems with Ed's difference of opinion, but I do strongly object to his One-True-Way approach. I appreciate and accept what ever opinion Ed has for himself, but that does not mean it is right or the only way.

I will state very clearly that while ever I am accepted as a member here I will never accept someone forcing their opinions down the throats of others as fact. We each have our own D/s and its not for others to judge. Differing opinions are always welcome - but opinion stated as fact should be treated with the contempt it deserves.

I will even say that if Ed rephrased his posts as personal opinion there is value and content in what he has to say, but while ever he insists that his opinion is fact, he is just trying to be the leader of the wolf pack.

Ed... enjoy your One-True-Way, but please don't impose it on others. They will make their own choices.

Brosco

[Aesop]

BTW Aesop, don't bother to warn me again, ...

Oh I won't.

[Rabbit1]

BTW Aesop, don't bother to warn me again, I won't bother exchanging with this clown (see his avatar) again.

difference of opinion is fine---but when you start geting personal with insults like name calling it is time for you to retire from the thread----

We can have a free exchange of ideas and opinions---without the name calling and getting personal ---no we will not close the thread ---but ban the member who can not control themselves and act like an adult on this adult board.

nuff said

[submissivewife]

Brosco, this is the second of my threads that, with your words, have caused me to consider shutting down the thread. I will not do that. You bluntly flammed and it will NOT be tolerated.

[Silke]

Hmm, I really don't understand why tempers rose sky high with this. Just speaking for myself here ...but as long as there's no personal insult I can live happily with someone giving his take on things, be it absolute or not. After all it's my choice to accept this opinion, sit back an laugh about it in private and put an alternative approach up for discussion. Someone else's views are just that, however narrow minded I might find them...why not smile and be happy that you found something that works for yourself?

The only time I get defensive is when I find myself in a tight spot. Again, this is ME, ok? Just making twice sure I'll get this point across...

Oh, and btw...I *love* your online relationship with fantassy and sit back in awe as to the results the two of you are getting. Not dreaming of wanting to diminish that. Especially you so generously share your experiences.

Silke

[Rabbit1]

Hmm, I really don't understand why tempers rose sky high with this. Just speaking for myself here ...but as long as there's no personal insult I can live happily with someone giving his take on things, be it absolute or not. After all it's my choice to accept this opinion, sit back an laugh about it in private and put an alternative approach up for discussion. Someone else's views are just that, however narrow minded I might find them...why not smile and be happy that you found something that works for yourself?

The only time I get defensive is when I find myself in a tight spot. Again, this is ME, ok? Just making twice sure I'll get this point across...

Oh, and btw...I *love* your online relationship with fantassy and sit back in awe as to the results the two of you are getting. Not dreaming of wanting to diminish that. Especially you so generously share your experiences.

Silke

yep I agree --but when someone starts calling me a clown and stating my opinions are stupid ---I tend to get defensive---and I know others do ---why ask opinions unless you really want them---why not just ask for those who agree with you ----that is the way I think----it is fine to ask for an opinion and when you get one opposed to your way of thinking ---it is fine to rebut it but to call someone else stupid or a clown ---is the beginning of a flame war---and it will not happen here---

[novus56]

Hmm, I really don't understand why tempers rose sky high with this. Just speaking for myself here ...but as long as there's no personal insult I can live happily with someone giving his take on things, be it absolute or not. After all it's my choice to accept this opinion, sit back an laugh about it in private and put an alternative approach up for discussion. Someone else's views are just that, however narrow minded I might find them...why not smile and be happy that you found something that works for yourself?

The only time I get defensive is when I find myself in a tight spot. Again, this is ME, ok? Just making twice sure I'll get this point across...

Oh, and btw...I *love* your online relationship with fantassy and sit back in awe as to the results the two of you are getting. Not dreaming of wanting to diminish that. Especially you so generously share your experiences.

Silke

First to Silke...Very well said! I always enjoy reading your thoughts on any topic you post on and this one I especially enjoyed and heartily agreed with. Just wanted you to know how much I appreciate your positive contributions here!

As far as the thread, I can definitely understand why this topic raises passionate opinions on both sides of the issue. Having at this point, only experienced the lifestyle in the online realm, I have at times felt that R/t lifestylers have looked down their noses at my experiences and minimized the value of those experiences in comparison to their own. Someone once even remarked that she didn't believe I was sincere in my desire to practice BDSM or I'd immediately find a local public group and get involved R/t. Certainly that remark as well as the other perceived put downs felt a bit hurtful. But as has already been eloquently pointed out here, one can't allow hurt feelings to give rise to a loss of control and a surrender to flaming responses, otherwise the free and positive exchange of ideas in a forum such as this is impaired. I find value in pretty much every opinion of another person, even when the opinion may differ markedly from my own. There is always value in seeing a thing from a different perspective, even if you remain unpersuaded to change your own view of it. Actually, one of the things I value most about what I have learned of this lifestyle thus far, is the fact that those involved in it, generally seem more tolerant of others than I have experienced from people in general. Perhaps because we all have different kinks but we can in most cases, respect the kinks of others even though we might not share their enthusiasm for a particular activity. This broadening of perspective I learned from the lifestyle, has served to help me become more tolerant in general and I value that a great deal.

I do hope that in the near future I will have the opportunity to experience BDSM R/t, but until then I will continue to enjoy, value, and learn from, the online experiences that I feel fortunate to have the opportunity to participate in.

novus

[Rabbit1]

Brosco in a PM to me expressed his wish to be banned from the entire forum

I gave him his wish

[Tojo]

Nice one novus. Yeah you can't change the world by beating it over the head.

Sorry to hear about Brosco, let's hope he cools down & apologises or whatever.

Live & let live I reckon.

Tojo

[fantassy]

Sorry to hear about Brosco, let's hope he cools down & apologises or whatever.

Tojo

I'll pass your sentiment along to him, Tojo. We have discussed it, and he is going to accept his punishment tonight. <wink>

fantassy

[Uncle_Ed]

I am not arrogant enough to imagine that I was the cause of Brosco's decsion to leave as there is clearly a larger picture.
For what it is worth I am prepared to apologise unreservedly for any offence I caused and would like to state that it was not intentional.
I tried to couch my opinions in terms that I hoped would show that I was speaking for myself and I posted my opinion as I am both intrigued and shocked by the on-line relationship boom.
This is my problem and I stand up to say that I am not up to the task of having such a relationship myself. I do lack the mental capacity to convert the virtual into any meaningful reality for me. I had to leave the chatroom for a while to "re-group" while I reconciled chatting to my personal needs.
Should this affect others?
Yes-in my r/l world. I place a limit on my play in here for I feel to go further would be cheating on my wife.
In this virtual world its up to the individual to ignore me or pity me.Am I upset by comments about me?
Of course not. Ed is not real. . My stories are posted and open to review.My opinions are open to examination and change.
This is why I pose some questions in the r/l-v-on-line debate and hope that one of you will enlighten me:

You have an on-line relationship and discover your co-respondant lives across the street from you.

Do you want to meet?

If no-why not?

Am I missing something? Is there a fear of the physicality? Does the soft machine concept upset you?

I accept totally that it's the way in which we process and react to stimulii from our senses that defines our true humanity. But I do believe that I should be open to my partner on all levels-both physical and emotional-for the relationship to gain full depth. Perhaps I am shallow as I need the physical attraction as well to really commit myself?
Boy! If I'm looking at this from an inadequate angle I'm going to be really pissed that I've missed my chances.

[Ozme52]

I am not arrogant enough to imagine that I was the cause of Brosco's decsion to leave as there is clearly a larger picture.
For what it is worth I am prepared to apologise unreservedly for any offence I caused and would like to state that it was not intentional.
I tried to couch my opinions in terms that I hoped would show that I was speaking for myself and I posted my opinion as I am both intrigued and shocked by the on-line relationship boom.

No worries Edmundo. There's no onus on you. When you first chimed in I thought... finally someone who (more or less) agrees with me, without me having to press the fine are of debate. Up to that point I had thought it a lively discussion. Aesop thought it was getting heated and that was his perogative, (and as it turned out... Aesop was right, though I didn't see it coming.)

Your comments were so laden with "I that..." and "I this..." that it was obvious to me you were stating an opinion about how you felt about the topic as it related to you. I didn't read it as any kind of attack on anyone...

The response to that was over the top and I hope Brosco, whom I dearly like, comes to see that. You were unfairly, but more importantlym, personally attacked.

Since I feel I actually got Brosco wound up and you were the unfortunate enough to be standing between us at the time, I would like to offer my apologies to you. I see you as blameless in this.

This is why I pose some questions in the r/l-v-on-line debate and hope that one of you will enlighten me:

You have an on-line relationship and discover your co-respondant lives across the street from you.

Do you want to meet?

If no-why not?

Am I missing something? Is there a fear of the physicality? Does the soft machine concept upset you?

An interesting proposition. My base answer is yes. Because, as I've said, I believe in the need for human interaction. But I would have to consider the possibility that it could adversely cause problems within my current relationship. We made promises, nearly 30 years ago, that we would protect each other from any affairs we chose to engage in. We were very up front about that. So... another town... 30 miles away. Yes. Across the street, probably not, but for that one reason.

For me, there is no fear of the physicality.

As to the rest of what you wrote, quit cutting yourself down. We're all here to explore and learn...

[katie_21]

You know, I used to not believe in online relationships at all (D/s or any kind) But for some strange reason I've changed my mind about it. Maybe people that don't feel like online relationships can mean something, well maybe they've never experienced an online relationship.

Just saying that if I hadn't fell for someone online, I wouldn't believe in it either.

[Tojo]

I'll pass your sentiment along to him, Tojo. We have discussed it, and he is going to accept his punishment tonight. <wink>

fantassy

Thanks for that fantassy- I approve of your task.

Yeah it's a shame he chucked it in, see if you can sort him out. I'm sure he'll be missed, eh guys?

You know, I used to not believe in online relationships at all (D/s or any kind) But for some strange reason I've changed my mind about it.

Yes it's pretty darn nice eh Heather?

Tojo

[Aesop]

Yeah it's a shame he chucked it in, see if you can sort him out. I'm sure he'll be missed, eh guys?

Yes he will.

[Ozme52]

Yeah it's a shame he chucked it in, ... I'm sure he'll be missed, eh guys?

Tojo

You got that right Tojo.

[Ozme52]

You know, I used to not believe in online relationships at all (D/s or any kind) But for some strange reason I've changed my mind about it. Maybe people that don't feel like online relationships can mean something, well maybe they've never experienced an online relationship.

Just saying that if I hadn't fell for someone online, I wouldn't believe in it either.

I don't think it's for some "strange reason." Everyone changes as they go through life. In the past, written correspondance was the lifeblood of most budding relationships. That waned over time with 20th century telecommunications and the ability to travel anywhere in the world in a day instead of months...

The net is recreating the art of correspondance in a new way and as we become more comfortable with the net, our feelings about it will also change. That doesn't change my feelings about the/my desire to also make personal contact.

[katie_21]

oh I was just being silly when I said "for some strange reason" Tojo knows I'm talking about him lol

[Ozme52]

oh I was just being silly when I said "for some strange reason" Tojo knows I'm talking about him lol

So I've come to gather.... his good fortune I must add.

[Tojo]

Yes I'd have to agree with that Oz. A lovely lady indeed- that Heather.

Just when you think things can't get any better, they usually do.


Tojo

[katie_21]

Yes I'd have to agree with that Oz. A lovely lady indeed- that Heather.

Just when you think things can't get any better, they usually do.


Tojo

Hmm...I disagree with that, I think it's me that's the lucky one

[Tojo]

Thanks cutie- a match made in heaven indeed.

Guess that just goes to show online/phone can be pretty darn fulfilling for some?

What'd I say the other day 'husbands & lovers may come & go but a Master is forever?'

Tojo

[Rabbit1]

It is great to see--an apology---when things get too heated ---my hats are off to those of you big enough to do so ----and I have suggested that if Brosco was willing to do the same --he would be reinstated ---I really did not want to ban him---it is the worst part of my job here---

so lets hope he cools down and comes around --because he will be missed

[Ozme52]

.. a joke I decided to take back...

[submissivewife]

Yep, Brosco will be missed.

[submissivewife]

aaawwwww how cute!