Is it really this bad??????

[SagaciousDom]

Quite obviously he was a mentally disturbed individual. Sane people do not commit mass murder. Personally I'm neither a gun control or gun rights activist. But it is my considered opinion that the easy access to firearms in this country, including access by mentally disturbed people is a part of the problem. However, blaming access to firearms alone is far too simplistic. After all in this case, the individual also is suspected of stabbing four people to death before embarking on the shooting spree. So is more knife control the answer? Those bent on killing other human beings will always find a weapon, a means and the opportunity even if somehow the logical first choices, firearms and knives were magically removed from society. I think the demonstrated unwillingness on the part of government at both the federal and state levels to provide adequate funding for the effective diagnosis and treatment of mental illness is one of the primary causes behind these tragedies. In addition our current federal government, principally the administration has intentionally created a culture of victimization simply to obtain political gain and to further an ideology. If you are a ne'er do well of any description, according to the government, it isn't your fault. You are a victim of some class of people who are unfairly discriminating against you, holding you back, denying you happiness and prosperity. In this sad instance the individual blamed women for his problems. This intentional government policy promotes class warfare, cultural and racial tensions. It makes people want to lash out at those they blame for victimizing them. As long as we have an irresponsible government that promotes these things, there will be those mentally unstable people who will carry out these atrocities. Unfortunately I fear this is a problem that will get far worse before it gets better because you can be sure that the current government policies will not be changing anytime soon.

[rebekka]

Until we as a society learn how to identify those individuals with mental illness - and how to help them, as well as come up with some sort of legislation that will tighten controls of who is allowed to have guns, this type of incident will continue to happen.

We need to come up with a better application process for those individuals who want to purchase a gun - including some sort of section regarding the mental state of the applicant.

We need to remove the stigma that accompanies mental illness.

And yes, SagaciousDom Sir, these sorts of incidents will continue to occur until we as a society stop it. How, I don't know...

[thir]

Until we as a society learn how to identify those individuals with mental illness - and how to help them, as well as come up with some sort of legislation that will tighten controls of who is allowed to have guns, this type of incident will continue to happen.

We need to come up with a better application process for those individuals who want to purchase a gun - including some sort of section regarding the mental state of the applicant.

We need to remove the stigma that accompanies mental illness.

And yes, SagaciousDom Sir, these sorts of incidents will continue to occur until we as a society stop it. How, I don't know...

I believe you are right about mental illness and lack of help as well as stigma. At least, in the European countries I am familiar with this being the case, and tragedies have occurred. Here in England they have campaigns from time to time, trying to make mental illness seen as any other illness, but I think it is tough going. It is not just about habitual thinking, I think mental illness scare people because we know too little.

As for gun laws I do take your word and that of others for the fact that it is too easy to get one. You cannot stop all these incidents, but you can stop some, I think.

But isn't it also necessary to work with the misogynist attitudes, which is the hate in this case, as if it had been racial or any other hate?

In the 70's women started their work for equality, and many changes have come from that. But there are two genders, and, as I see it, men did not change their lot nearly as much. There is an imbalance, one part changes, the other does not (nearly as much.)

Do men need to define themselves differently? Do they need to protest against divorce laws economically and who gets the children? Do they need to protest against having to be the providers, in countries where this is the case? Do they need to see themselves differently?

Many men dislike feminists, why? Isn't it time we met, men and women, and got ourselves sorted out??

[thir]

SagaciousDom, if I read you right, you see this as a crazy guy who was lead to take out his frustrations on women. In other words, a person whose unhappiness got shown a target by way of the sites he frequented?

In your opinion, if there had been no misogynistic to tell him how this is all the fault of other people, would he not have done this? Or would he have found another set of hate sites and found another target?

I wonder because his loneliness and frustrations seemed to focused on women.

[SagaciousDom]

At least from what I have read about this particular situation, I simply feel that it is inaccurate to attribute this person's actions to misogyny. He targeted a specific class of women as indicated by the fact that the first place he went was to a sorority house when he was ready to start shooting. He went elsewhere only when he was unable to gain entrance there. There has been no evidence he hated all women but the specific class of women he viewed as his preferred sexual partners and coveted. He saw himself as being victimized by them because due to no fault of his own (in his own twisted perspective of course) such women were unfairly discriminating against him by their unwillingness to enter a relationship or sexual liaison with him. He also shot and killed men in addition to women and one story I read also indicated that he blamed other men who he believed were having sex with women because he felt that they were less worthy than he and were also responsible for preventing him from experiencing what he believed he was entitled to and that which would bring him happiness and fulfillment. I think mental illness is clearly the primary causative factor and I think what would have prevented this tragedy would have been an effective mental health system which does not exist in this country. In addition, mentally ill people are prohibited from purchasing firearms in this country but lacking an effective system of identifying the mentally ill and flagging them as disqualified for purchasing weapons, individuals who are a danger to themselves or others and capable of violence, it is quite impossible to enforce the prohibition and a mentally ill person who has no business accessing a firearm finds it just as easy to do so as a sane person. That said a person who is a misogynist is I believe mentally ill to begin with. Hatred, dislike, mistrust or mistreatment of women in general is not something normal, mentally healthy men do. There is simply no excuse for having those kinds of feelings toward other human beings. It is simply abnormal.

[Thorne]

I think mental illness is clearly the primary causative factor

I've seen no evidence that this man suffered from any diagnosed mental illness, despite the fact that he had apparently been seen by therapists or doctors. Yes, we like to claim that this is not "normal" behavior, that only someone who is "crazy" would do something like this, but the truth is there are a lot of otherwise normal people who have done far worse! Don't be so quick to attribute this to mental illness.

I simply feel that it is inaccurate to attribute this person's actions to misogyny.

I would suggest you look up something called, I believe, the Slymepit. It is reputedly a rather disgusting collection of misogynistic men (and women!) who are actually praising Rogers as a martyr! Hatred of women, such as he related in his video, is par for the course among these people. And how many times have we read about someone who kills his wife or girlfriend just because she left him? Are you claiming they're all crazy? No, they are just men, mostly, who have been raised to believe that their needs are all that's important, and that all women, especially the hot ones, must submit to those needs at all times. Any woman, or even another man, who denies those tenets, who speaks up for the rights of women, who do not believe women are property, are automatically considered the enemy.

From everything I've read, Elliot Rogers was a privileged, over-indulged punk who finally snapped. I would speculate that, for much of his life, he was rarely denied anything he wanted, so when women didn't flock to his door, throw themselves at his feet, or worse, went out with someone he deemed "lower" than himself, he viewed them as attacks upon himself.

So, was he insane? I doubt it, though I would like to hear from the psyches about that. He apparently suffered from Asperger's Syndrome, but from what I've learned just about everyone in the world suffers from that to one degree or another. And I don't think it's classified as a mental illness.

He targeted a specific class of women as indicated by the fact that the first place he went was to a sorority house when he was ready to start shooting. He went elsewhere only when he was unable to gain entrance there.

His plan was to START at the sorority house, since he considered those women to be the worst of the worst, and then proceed to killing randomly in the streets, based on the transcripts of his video which I've read. While he may have had a specific type (he did mention blondes) it sounded to me like he was going to target everyone, eventually.

There is simply no excuse for having those kinds of feelings toward other human beings. It is simply abnormal.

Sadly, it is far TOO normal. Look at fundamentalist Muslims, who will kill a woman for speaking out of turn, or fundamentalist Jews, who want separate buses for women, or fundamentalist Christians who blatantly pronounce women to be a subservient class. Look at the hardcore politicians who would rather see women die than give them control of their own bodies. It may be evil. It may be horrifying. It's sadly not abnormal.

thir asked "Is it really that bad???" Read about the MRA's. Read about Rebecca Watson. Read about Ashley Miller. Not only is it really that bad, it's worse!

[thir]

"thir asked "Is it really that bad???" Read about the MRA's. Read about Rebecca Watson. Read about Ashley Miller. Not only is it really that bad, it's worse!"

I think maybe a lot of these idiots are just blowing off steam, but unfortunately now and then they run into someone who starts taking it seriously. Not that 'blowing off steam' online is innocent fun, it is disgusting, and one wonders what on earth is the matter with these people.