Is being online 'chatting' whilst in a relationship cheating?

[love2serve]

Tonight I was in the chatroom and was contacted by someone with whom I have been playing/chatting for a month or so. We were just chatting about work etc when 'he' informed me that it wasn't him at all, but his girlfriend. As you can imagine I was shocked. She was very upset and called me disgusting for entering into an online 'relationship' with someone who already has a girlfriend, and that the things we did on here or on YIM were totally perverted and disgusting (you might have thought that the name of the website would have given that away somewhat - but hey-ho) Anyway, just wanted to warn people - be it ones like me, who know that guys have wives and families and play anyway or guys who know that their wives dont and would never, approve of this type of activity - there are always consequences and maybe, i will in future consider this, albeit briefly before I play, who knows.

The question still needs answering - is this cheating? Not for me because I told my husband, as i felt that not to WOULD constitute a form of cheating and he is fine about it, but for those who sneak on behind partners backs, late at night or in the office - would you or your spouse/partner consider this cheating? and would it cause problems in your relationship if they found out? Interested to hear peoples opinions, as it knocked me for six to be confronted by someone outside the community who was genuinely upset by it all.

[DiablosLittleOne]

If someone needs to sneak behind their partners backs to do something they know it is wrong and therefore it should be considered cheating. They know it would be thought of this way or they wouldn't have hid it in the first place. However, like in your circumstance, if the other party is aware of it and it okay with it, then no, it is not cheating. It has to be a mutual agreement I think.

I'm one of those people that thinks you most certainly can have an "affair" online with no physical contact, especially if you develop real feelings for that person. I would be hurt and feel betrayed.

My question is this. If you know that a man is married and his wife would not approve of it, would you continue such activity and if so, why? (Not directed at you, but anyone in general that would be willing to answer).

Have a great night!

[Ragoczy]

I think the girl was clearly out of line for berating you instead of dealing with her boyfriend directly (although I'd expect that's on the agenda as well). It always amazes me that the betrayed partner seems to be more pissed at the "other woman/man" than at the cheating spouse.

That being said, it's clear that she thought it was cheating and was upset and hurt by it -- and I think that's the measuring stick that should be used to judge if something's cheating. If he doesn't think it's cheating, then he probably shouldn't be with someone who does. I posted a lot of my thoughts on this topic in another thread: http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=17784

For those involved in online relationships with people who're keeping things from their spouse, your experience should be a cautionary tale. You had a bad experience, being berated by an angry girlfriend. Imagine if you'd had a longer, more intimate and trusted relationship with this guy -- maybe shared a few things that would identify you. Not entirely unthinkable -- a first name, a city and where you work isn't that unlikely to be shared.

Now an embittered partner who's clever enough to get his username, password and browsing history to find you here might just be pissed off enough to put some logging software ($39.95) on his PC and access his email -- suddenly this person has information about you.

"Susy who works a Best Buy in Tulsa" may not seem like a lot to go on, but pissed-off people are resourceful and will expend a lot of effort and money in their search for vengeance. Every Best Buy in Tulsa's going to get a detailed account of the online activities and escapades mailed to it -- or worse, a personal visit.

[Ozme52]

Or it could be he thought it was totally innocent and doesn't password protect his computer... or left it on and she just looked...

Regardless, obviously he didn't think it was cheating. For all we know, it wasn't his girlfriend. Even if it was... maybe she also thinks reading Maxim or Playboy would be cheating. Many do.

You know... just because you have a partner doesn't mean you can't have separate friends and interests.

[MMI]

IMO you can have an online relationship, and you can cheat on your partner that way.

Your partner is entitled to feel aggrieved because, if you think you have been cheating, then sure as eggs is eggs, so will she.

But you can keep your little secret to yourself. It's not hard to do. Just get into the routine of closing all windows when you leave your computer. Expect everything you leave on your computer to be read by your partner, if not because she's checking up on you, then because she's just idly browsing. So at the end of your session, delete your files and your history. Deep clean if you have the software.

Final point, if you're caught cheating, are you entitled to be upset that someone's reading your private messages/going online in your name. Is that as bad? Or worse?

[slave4ever96]

To me i do not see why the other party should be to blame at all. After all if a married man/woman is coming on line to find a person to have some fun with wither it be sexual or just someone to talk too. Then there must be an issue some where within the relationship they hold off line that is causing the person to search else where for release. So the ingured party should think twice and look at themselves to see if there is a reason why their significant other went to a stranger instead. While I am just new to the whole submissive Dominate relationship I know my Master would be terribly upset if I went searching else where and I have no reason too. But before this I was one of the few who have had a similar thing happen and the wife was so upset and so defiant that her husband would never cheat on her but she had no idea that i was not the only woman he was having an affair with both on here and off. So is it cheating purhaps depends on who you ask i guess. I know I would hate for the person I was with to search else where for release. But if he was on line and got excited but used me to release the energy then purhaps I wouldnt consider it cheating but if he was to cum for someone else then yes I think I would be upset about it but I would also wounder why he needed to do that instead of using me for the same outcome. Was there something wrong between us that I no longer satisfied his cravings? Was the other woman prettier? Would be some of the questions going through my mind.

[thepast]

Some words of wisdom...

You signing online leaves an electronic trail. If you think your partner doesn't know... yeah right. They might just act like they don't, or they are just ignoring it. If you live with someone, you notice when they're online frequently (etc etc etc).

If in your gut it feels wrong, it's probably not good for you. If you feel fine about it, go ahead. Just remember: your actions will always affect others. Food for thought.

As for people in the chatroom... as always, it's the internet & you never know who's actually on the other side of the screen. Exercise some common sense, caution & just know that you might be surprised to find out who/what's on the other side of that other computer screen...

That being said. Life is about choices. You'll make good ones, you'll make bad ones. The key is to know the difference & to never make the same mistakes twice.

[SnickerKitten]

From Ozme: You know... just because you have a partner doesn't mean you can't have separate friends and interests.

Ouch. Seperate friends and interests are not typically hidden from the partner. I think if you have to hide something you are doing from your partner then you're hiding it NOT because the partner is wrong for their view of it, but because YOU know they'll be upset if they know you are doing it.

It's OK for me to view my husband kissing another woman (I'd rip his lips off his face and stuff them... before slowly killing him....) and it is right and proper for him to respect that and NOT kiss another woman. It's also ok that I'm ok with my husband playing sexually with another woman as long as I'm aware of it.

It's ok to have relationships of a sexual nature outside your relationship if #1 it is not an exclusive relationship and you've made it clear to your partner that you will not be monogamous or #2 you are in an exclusive relationship and your partner has given approval for you to step outside of it.

If you can't trust your partner enough to be honest with them about the things you want and need to feel fulfilled then you should NOT be with that person. You are wasting your time and theirs and robbing both of you of the satisfaction that comes from a full sharing of selves. Robbing someone of the ability to have that type of fulfillment is just outright disrespectful. It also makes the person doing the sneaking total scum.

-kitten

[Euryleia]

Going outside of the establish bounds of the relationship is cheating. If you've communicated clearly and this is part of your relationship, then it is not. If you know that your partner would be hurt to learn about your online life and you hide and do it anyway, you're a cheater.

The watchword here is communicate. Its the basic for all the best relationships and a necessary component of BDSM.

[lucy]

If a partner doesn't know what her/his significant other is doing, it's cheating. But people can also be hurt even if both don't have a partner. I fooled around with a guy online some time ago, when i was still single, and although i always made it clear that this will remain that way, online i mean, he still fell in love with me (i can't really imagine how something like that can happen, he never even saw a picture of me).
When i finally was able to make him realize that i am not interested in more than "fooling around online" he was terribly hurt and suffering a lot. And i was terribly sorry and don't want people to get hurt because of me having some fun.

So i keep chat to "informative" talk about BDSM or everyday topics. If possible, but that's yet another topic...

[MMI]

... your actions will always affect others.

Exactly right.

... if you have to hide something you are doing from your partner then you're hiding it NOT because the partner is wrong for their view of it, but because YOU know they'll be upset if they know you are doing it.

Again, exactly so.


So, you either don't do it, or you don't get caught (but there's always a risk that you will).

It also makes the person doing the sneaking total scum.

Ummmm ... Fair comment, I suppose

[shayna{L_D}]

I know i am going to get a lot of backlash for this but its my opinion.
I know a lot of people on this site that are marrried in the vanilla world and have online Doms/subs on the internet. Is that cheating? HELL YES. You are cybering, and or role playing, via messages, cam, voice, with someone else. You are sharing intimate time with someone other then your wife/husband.

Is it cheating if you are upfront and honest with your wife or husband saying that yes in fact i am with someone on the internet. I dont think so, if the other person is aware of you being with someone else on the internet and they are okay with it then its NOT cheating. Is it wrong? Yes. But thats between u and your r/l lover.

Cheating is described as many different things, to me cheating is when you are either married to or have a boyfriend/girlfriend, and have feelings for someone else. Extreme? Maybe, but ive always lived by the fact that yes indeed you can have feelings for two people but...you are always going to favor one over the other. Thats cheating. Kissing, gropeing, cybering, role playing, fucking, spanking, fingering, blow jobs, anything that is sexual touching is CHEATING. Period. Also, in my expierence i have came across some pretty racey texts in my ex's phone (when we were together) talking about 'if i wasnt with her i would be laying in bed with you right now' thats cheating!! Period.

Maybe i am being a little over dramtic but when im with someone, its all eyes on them. I see no one else, yes ill chat with people on the internet, this forum, the chatroom, in real life, of course, they are friends but would i ever cross the line to anything sexual, never! I wouldnt want my partner to do it either. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Would you want to see your partner kissing, fucking, cybering? I dont think so..

*end of rant*

[Arria]

I think one asks oneself this question only if one has the gut feeling what one does is actually wrong, so that question actually is the answer.

Comparing chatting with real people to looking at porn pages or movies is bullshit, because there is no interaction going on in porn - and there is therefore no chance some kinky porn actress starts to fancy your husband, come pay him a visit, and try to persuade him to leave you and run off with her instead!

Separate friends and interest are something else, too. Those are usually not hidden or kept secret.
It´s the sex-related "friends and interests" that get hidden, because those are what upsets partners and spouses.
(I agree that there are people who consider looking at porn or reading stories or even maasturbating to your own head-movie cheating, and this is in my opinion completely ridiculous, and I would not put up with such a person for long.)

I agree that there are things your spouse cannot provide you with, for whatever the reason may be, but I do not regard that fact as proof of "wasting your time with the wrong person".
Expecting ONE person to fulfill ALL your needs is a huge task. I consider it unfair to demand that from one single person.

I have one online person I share my non-possible fantasies with (quite splattery, leaving permanent damage or me as a corpse behind if taken to real life). Hubby knows this, and the best parts I send him to read.
He also has most of my passwords etc. and COULD basically sneak into my activities, but he says he does not do that (and I believe he would only do so if he was seriously worried about anything going on, or if he had the feeling I withdraw from him and give myself to someone else...).
He did not ask me for them, and I would not stay with a person who "demanded" it from me. I want a partner, not a fucking parent or control freak.
On the other hand - I gave them to him because he did NOT demand it, and therefore it was easy for me to do it, I did not feel mistrusted or pressured.
The one thing he won´t have is me doing anything physical/sexual behind his back online (I do not want anyone else offline/in real life, mind - however, if hubby left me for someone else, I might very strongly consider a visit to my online playmate *g*).

I, on the other hand, do not want his passwords and a full report of his online activities. I even believed for more than 10 years that he did online chatting, because he knows all the pages and stuff that is BDSM-related :-)
I never asked him, because I don´t mind if I don´t know it, as long as I don´t feel anything vital is being taken away from me/he rather spends his time online with others, than with me.

So "doing it behind your partner´s back" is ok with me, BUT! that is because I would want it that way, and not because we never spoke about that and I took his being "good" for granted.

(I only brought up the topic when I told him about that other online person and my fantasies, and only then it turned out he is not into onlining... the only way that would attract him was if he was to meet the other person later and do things for real, and as I am a jealous bitch, that´s not an option *g*).

And honestly, this whole discussion is pointless, because just if 1,000 people are fine with doing it, it does not make your spouse "wrong" if he does mind.

Online relationships might not be a legal reason for divorce, but they can break trust nevertheless.

Once you find you like to spend time with your online other better than being with your real life partner, or once you find you can better confide into your online other than into your spouse, you might want to reconsider your partnership, though.

I agree that one should not waste one´s life as well as someone else´s by being insufficient for each other.

Oh, and about those oh-so-good tips for "keeping your PC clear of all evidence": THAT would be one hundred percent more suspicious than leaving anything in the open.
And a person like my hubby who works in the IT field and also maintains my notebook, could discover any sort of traces anywhere anyway.

Hum, and I might be old-fashioned, but I think hanging around on such places while at work wrong. If I was a boss, I would not want to pay my employees for hanging around in chatrooms or forums for hours on end.
Plus I, as an employee, would find it embarrassing if our IT personnel could read about those things when checking my PC - no matter if it´s legally forbidden to pass the info on, I would simply dislike to have that sort of chat and forum activity known at work.
They know hubby and I are physically exclusive and into BDSM, but that´s something else. Details are not given.

[Ragoczy]

So, you either don't do it, or you don't get caught (but there's always a risk that you will).

So I have to ask: Does not getting caught make it okay to do? And, if so, at what point is "not getting caught" no longer the criteria for something being okay?

[slave4ever96]

You should never hide anything from your partner. True it takes time to build trust in a relationship but after awhile your partner should know everything about you. Coming on line and chatting about sexual things with other people shouldnt be an issue of weither to be open or sneak around tring to not get caught. The answer is DONT DO IT. If you need to go to other people to fulfill a desire that your partner isnt willing to fulfil with you but yet you havent even asked is a major communication problem. If you have asked and they flat out say they wont be apart of it either except that and keep it as a fantasy or openly ask how they would feel if you found someone who would wither its a one time deal or more. I think even in a Dom/sub relationship there has to be open communication; even if it is set up that the Dom has finally say. Without communication and trust there is no reason to allow the relationship to continue. And sneaking around behind your partners back is a lack of both.

[Ragoczy]

Hum, and I might be old-fashioned, but I think hanging around on such places while at work wrong. If I was a boss, I would not want to pay my employees for hanging around in chatrooms or forums for hours on end.
Plus I, as an employee, would find it embarrassing if our IT personnel could read about those things when checking my PC - no matter if it´s legally forbidden to pass the info on, I would simply dislike to have that sort of chat and forum activity known at work.
They know hubby and I are physically exclusive and into BDSM, but that´s something else. Details are not given.

Under US law, an employee has no expectation or right to privacy for use of a computer provided by the employer. This includes websites visited, chat and email, whether a personal account or business. If the access is through a PC the employer owns, then the employer can track everything, with or without the employee's knowledge.

[Ozme52]

I know i am going to get a lot of backlash for this but its my opinion.
I know a lot of people on this site that are marrried in the vanilla world and have online Doms/subs on the internet. Is that cheating? HELL YES. You are cybering, and or role playing, via messages, cam, voice, with someone else. You are sharing intimate time with someone other then your wife/husband.

Is it cheating if you are upfront and honest with your wife or husband saying that yes in fact i am with someone on the internet. I dont think so, if the other person is aware of you being with someone else on the internet and they are okay with it then its NOT cheating. Is it wrong? Yes. But thats between u and your r/l lover.

Cheating is described as many different things, to me cheating is when you are either married to or have a boyfriend/girlfriend, and have feelings for someone else. Extreme? Maybe, but ive always lived by the fact that yes indeed you can have feelings for two people but...you are always going to favor one over the other. Thats cheating. Kissing, gropeing, cybering, role playing, fucking, spanking, fingering, blow jobs, anything that is sexual touching is CHEATING. Period. Also, in my expierence i have came across some pretty racey texts in my ex's phone (when we were together) talking about 'if i wasnt with her i would be laying in bed with you right now' thats cheating!! Period.

Maybe i am being a little over dramtic but when im with someone, its all eyes on them. I see no one else, yes ill chat with people on the internet, this forum, the chatroom, in real life, of course, they are friends but would i ever cross the line to anything sexual, never! I wouldnt want my partner to do it either. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Would you want to see your partner kissing, fucking, cybering? I dont think so..

*end of rant*

Well, obviously you're in the majority so you won't get a lot of backlash... but what about a non-sexual conversation between two people (presumably of the opposite sex) and they grow close... become friends.

Is that cheating? Does it have to be sexual? Does taking time from the spouse... and s/he is unaware of your online friend constitute cheating? What if you're never home on weekends because you're with your golf buddies? Is it any less fair to "steal" time from a spouse just because it's non-sexual.

I guess that's the reason I tend to want to look at the circumstances and judge them individually... it's why I am loathe to label everyone with the same brush.

[Arria]

"if the other person is aware of you being with someone else on the internet and they are okay with it then its NOT cheating. Is it wrong? Yes. But thats between u and your r/l lover."

I don´t see how something that is ok for both partners should be wrong. What is wrong or not in a relationship is to be decided between the two partners, not by some outside morals.

[Ozme52]

I think one asks oneself this question only if one has the gut feeling what one does is actually wrong, so that question actually is the answer.

This is a far better perspective in my mind arria.

Comparing chatting with real people to looking at porn pages or movies is bullshit, because there is no interaction going on in porn - and there is therefore no chance some kinky porn actress starts to fancy your husband, come pay him a visit, and try to persuade him to leave you and run off with her instead!

So... what about the people who are "addicted" to porn... and find themselves unable to "perform" for their partner... if that isn't "cheating their partner of their affections" I guess we need better words to differentiate.

I'm not trying to say they're equivalent... just that there are parallels.

Separate friends and interest are something else, too. Those are usually not hidden or kept secret.
It´s the sex-related "friends and interests" that get hidden, because those are what upsets partners and spouses.

Golf is sex? I'm being facetious... but some spouses are no less annoyed with such types of neglect. And I know men who lie about going golfing, or fishing, etc... but aren't labeled cheaters.

(I agree that there are people who consider looking at porn or reading stories or even maasturbating to your own head-movie cheating, and this is in my opinion completely ridiculous, and I would not put up with such a person for long.)

I agree that there are things your spouse cannot provide you with, for whatever the reason may be, but I do not regard that fact as proof of "wasting your time with the wrong person".
Expecting ONE person to fulfill ALL your needs is a huge task. I consider it unfair to demand that from one single person.

I have one online person I share my non-possible fantasies with (quite splattery, leaving permanent damage or me as a corpse behind if taken to real life). Hubby knows this, and the best parts I send him to read.
He also has most of my passwords etc. and COULD basically sneak into my activities, but he says he does not do that (and I believe he would only do so if he was seriously worried about anything going on, or if he had the feeling I withdraw from him and give myself to someone else...).
He did not ask me for them, and I would not stay with a person who "demanded" it from me. I want a partner, not a fucking parent or control freak.
On the other hand - I gave them to him because he did NOT demand it, and therefore it was easy for me to do it, I did not feel mistrusted or pressured.
The one thing he won´t have is me doing anything physical/sexual behind his back online (I do not want anyone else offline/in real life, mind - however, if hubby left me for someone else, I might very strongly consider a visit to my online playmate *g*).

I, on the other hand, do not want his passwords and a full report of his online activities. I even believed for more than 10 years that he did online chatting, because he knows all the pages and stuff that is BDSM-related :-)
I never asked him, because I don´t mind if I don´t know it, as long as I don´t feel anything vital is being taken away from me/he rather spends his time online with others, than with me.

So "doing it behind your partner´s back" is ok with me, BUT! that is because I would want it that way, and not because we never spoke about that and I took his being "good" for granted.

Thank you. This has always been my point. Not every partner cares or wants to know. Just the fact that the partner doesn't know doesn't make it cheating. If the person who has online, or real life, affairs is well aware of their partners preference and doesn't hide the fact that they have an ongoing "permanent" relationship with their paramour, then perhaps we shouldn't be labeling them as villains.

(I only brought up the topic when I told him about that other online person and my fantasies, and only then it turned out he is not into onlining... the only way that would attract him was if he was to meet the other person later and do things for real, and as I am a jealous bitch, that´s not an option *g*).

And honestly, this whole discussion is pointless, because just if 1,000 people are fine with doing it, it does not make your spouse "wrong" if he does mind.

Online relationships might not be a legal reason for divorce, but they can break trust nevertheless.

Once you find you like to spend time with your online other better than being with your real life partner, or once you find you can better confide into your online other than into your spouse, you might want to reconsider your partnership, though.

I agree that one should not waste one´s life as well as someone else´s by being insufficient for each other.

Oh, and about those oh-so-good tips for "keeping your PC clear of all evidence": THAT would be one hundred percent more suspicious than leaving anything in the open.
And a person like my hubby who works in the IT field and also maintains my notebook, could discover any sort of traces anywhere anyway.

Hum, and I might be old-fashioned, but I think hanging around on such places while at work wrong. If I was a boss, I would not want to pay my employees for hanging around in chatrooms or forums for hours on end.

I agree... some would call this stealing. I wonder how many of those who are so fast to label others but use their employers bandwidth would object to being called thieves. Anyone want to fess up?

Plus I, as an employee, would find it embarrassing if our IT personnel could read about those things when checking my PC - no matter if it´s legally forbidden to pass the info on, I would simply dislike to have that sort of chat and forum activity known at work.
They know hubby and I are physically exclusive and into BDSM, but that´s something else. Details are not given.

Thanx for you perspectives arria.

[Ozme52]

It also makes the person doing the sneaking total scum.

-kitten

I guess it's not enough to just say you disapprove... You insist, again, on labeling people who act differently than you do.

[Arria]

@ Ozme: I don´t argue that there are not other sorts of neglect, but that is not the question in this thread...

Neither was the amount of time spent watching porn the question... but the difference between watching something one-sided, and _interacting_ with people.

We call that comparing apples with pears :-)

And I do not oppose when one partner does not want to know something - I function that way myself -, but the pseudo-good self-justification of the "as long as my spouse does not KNOW it, I am not taking anything away from her - but I did not bother to ask her opinion on that matter before I took up the action in question".
That is false/cheating, imho... and not even having the guts to admit to such cowardice is a turn-off for me, and takes away any respect I might have had for such a person.

And, independent of the gender, I find it truly sad if one suffocates his/her partner so much that the partner has to lie about his activities.
Equally sorry am I for people who are so unhappy in their relationship that they use either chatting or golfing as an excuse for not having to spend time with their spouse (as opposed to "chatting or golfing for fun/because one enjoys it"), and don´t have the guts to speak up about that fact and communicate their unhappiness.

Still, I cannot help but wonder why you bring up non-sexual activities/pastimes in such threads again and again.
There IS a difference.
If the thing is not sex-related, the partner will feel only neglected.
If it IS sex-related, the partner will feel both neglected AND cheated upon.
Neither is good.
But they are two different things.

[Ragoczy]

I agree... some would call this stealing. I wonder how many of those who are so fast to label others but use their employers bandwidth would object to being called thieves. Anyone want to fess up?

As one of those "fast to label", I'll go ahead and answer so you don't think I'm avoiding the question.

I use some of my employer's bandwidth for personal business -- not sites like this, because I'm not stupid -- as well as pens, paper clips and an occasional ream of paper. I also use my own bandwidth for work after hours, my own toner to print work documents at home and I average 30% more hours each week than I'm salaried for as well as being ~1000% more productive than most of the other developers there (not an exaggeration, we've done studies). My employer's aware of these things and has no issue with it.

The comparison's nice, but I'm not sure there's a moral equivalency between causing emotional pain to someone who loves you and whom you, ostensibly love and visiting Amazon on the clock.

[Ragoczy]

I guess it's not enough to just say you disapprove... You insist, again, on labeling people who act differently than you do.

Yes, it's called a moral judgment. It's having an opinion on right and wrong and not accepting wrong just because the other person thinks it's okay or somehow justifies it in their own mind -- that's what people do. Everyone does it, because everyone has things that they believe are wrong. We may differ on where we draw the line, but everyone has a line where they're going to label the actions of those on the other side "scum" or worse.

This concept of accepting differences that's so popular these days is all well and good, but it doesn't mean I'm required to accept or tolerate a difference that I believe is morally wrong -- if that were the case, then murder would be legal if the murderer didn't think it was wrong.

For me, the line is simple: deliberately doing something that you know will cause harm to an innocent is wrong.

If someone knows their partner will consider an act infidelity and does it anyway, thereby hurting their partner, then I believe that's wrong.

I label them "scum", just as I label murderers "fucking scum" and pedophiles "fucking scum who should go feet first through a wood chipper" and label someone who hurts those I love as "fucking scum who will go feet first through a wood chipper" -- it's simply a matter of degree. (Obviously I'm not serious about that last one. I would never use a wood chipper ... a few days in a mangrove swamp is so much less messy.) My point is that we all have a line and a hierarchy on the other side of it -- or can you honestly say that don't don't label those who rape, murder or are pedophiles? Or that you wouldn't label someone who hurt a loved one of yours as worse than that?

For you, apparently, the line's in a different place than mine. Just as my line's in a different place from those who think BDSM is wrong and label us -- but it's their right to make that judgment, just as it's mine to set my line. I may think they're misguided or incorrect, just as you, I assume, think I am. And you're welcome to try and convince me of that -- just as I'll try and convince them that the line should be at "harm" and not at "I don't like".

[angelic.zest]

i really enjoy these kinds of threads, i believe there are...ahhh roughly 4 in circulation at the very moment...sighs..

as we all stated before, terms, guidelines set up at the beginning, near the middle of a relationship can only determine if a person(partner) is cheating or not, as Oz said, maybe playboy, Maxium is cheating to this female where for most of us its just abit of light reading...whatever the case maybe its up to the two ppl involved to know if a person is cheating or not.

as delia said, excerise some caustion when speaking with someone, we never know who's on the other side of these screens.

[Ozme52]

@ Ozme: I don´t argue that there are not other sorts of neglect, but that is not the question in this thread...

Neither was the amount of time spent watching porn the question... but the difference between watching something one-sided, and _interacting_ with people.

We call that comparing apples with pears :-)

And I do not oppose when one partner does not want to know something - I function that way myself -, but the pseudo-good self-justification of the "as long as my spouse does not KNOW it, I am not taking anything away from her - but I did not bother to ask her opinion on that matter before I took up the action in question".
That is false/cheating, imho... and not even having the guts to admit to such cowardice is a turn-off for me, and takes away any respect I might have had for such a person.

And, independent of the gender, I find it truly sad if one suffocates his/her partner so much that the partner has to lie about his activities.
Equally sorry am I for people who are so unhappy in their relationship that they use either chatting or golfing as an excuse for not having to spend time with their spouse (as opposed to "chatting or golfing for fun/because one enjoys it"), and don´t have the guts to speak up about that fact and communicate their unhappiness.

Still, I cannot help but wonder why you bring up non-sexual activities/pastimes in such threads again and again.
There IS a difference.
If the thing is not sex-related, the partner will feel only neglected.
If it IS sex-related, the partner will feel both neglected AND cheated upon.
Neither is good.
But they are two different things.

I think I bring it up because so many others here say there is NO excuse and NO situation that is justification. So I wonder what they feel about other forms of disloyalty. Or if they just have strong opinions about sexual activities... which I find odd considering what forum we're on.

[Ozme52]

Yes, it's called a moral judgment. It's having an opinion on right and wrong and not accepting wrong just because the other person thinks it's okay or somehow justifies it in their own mind -- that's what people do. Everyone does it, because everyone has things that they believe are wrong. We may differ on where we draw the line, but everyone has a line where they're going to label the actions of those on the other side "scum" or worse.

This concept of accepting differences that's so popular these days is all well and good, but it doesn't mean I'm required to accept or tolerate a difference that I believe is morally wrong -- if that were the case, then murder would be legal if the murderer didn't think it was wrong.

For me, the line is simple: deliberately doing something that you know will cause harm to an innocent is wrong.

If someone knows their partner will consider an act infidelity and does it anyway, thereby hurting their partner, then I believe that's wrong.

I label them "scum", just as I label murderers "fucking scum" and pedophiles "fucking scum who should go feet first through a wood chipper" and label someone who hurts those I love as "fucking scum who will go feet first through a wood chipper" -- it's simply a matter of degree. (Obviously I'm not serious about that last one. I would never use a wood chipper ... a few days in a mangrove swamp is so much less messy.) My point is that we all have a line and a hierarchy on the other side of it -- or can you honestly say that don't don't label those who rape, murder or are pedophiles? Or that you wouldn't label someone who hurt a loved one of yours as worse than that?

For you, apparently, the line's in a different place than mine. Just as my line's in a different place from those who think BDSM is wrong and label us -- but it's their right to make that judgment, just as it's mine to set my line. I may think they're misguided or incorrect, just as you, I assume, think I am. And you're welcome to try and convince me of that -- just as I'll try and convince them that the line should be at "harm" and not at "I don't like".

Though I disagree with where you draw the line, I don't object to having different opinions.

I will always object to the name calling.

If you ever post about some activity you enjoy... and someone specifically villifies you for it... I expect you to not object... but don't worry, I'll be there to object on your behalf.

[Ragoczy]

Though I disagree with where you draw the line, I don't object to having different opinions.

I will always object to the name calling.

If you ever post about some activity you enjoy... and someone specifically villifies you for it... I expect you to not object... but don't worry, I'll be there to object on your behalf.

So, since the Devil has me on retainer ...

If someone starts a thread about what they like to do to little girls and someone calls him scum, will you be objecting to the name calling?

(And, since we are where we are, I'll clarify that I mean real little girls, not a forty-year old guy wearing petticoats -- there should be no name-calling in that thread ... unless he likes it ...)

[Arria]

@ Ozme: Thanks for clarifying that... having had one of them (the non-sex related activity runaway), I can say being neglected for a non-sexual activity when the relationship is going through a hard time is probably even worse than for a sexual activity - because, if your partner acts dumb / does not admit it, there is no way you can make clear something is wrong and he is avoiding you.

It will get you a "you don´t want me to have harmless fun" accusation, which is - again - bullshit.
I would not oppose against my partner having harmless fun.
I would, and did, however, very, very strongly oppose to him spending the greatest part of his free time away from me, having an extremely good mood when heading out, while always being sulky, down, and non-communicating while being at home.

The fact that there is nothing sexual involved just makes you feel even more helpless and desperate and alone. Because - he is not doing anything WRONG, is he?

One of the reasons I hate the doing-behind-the-spouse´s-back-without-ever-having-asked-his-opinion attitude so much is that I have a very strong feeling that, once the issue is found out and in the open, the "acting" partner will say something along the lines of "I never took anything away from you - you never even noticed until you stumbled across the fact by accident", thus not even granting the spouse the right to feeling hurt and betrayed.

Because if they would NOT defend themselves along these lines, they would have to admit they did something wrong.
Cowardly people do things behind their spouse´s backs.
So I see very little chance that such a cowardly person will invite trouble by admitting to wrong-doing.

And this picture makes me sick to my stomach. I know what it feels like. And it´s bad enough when there is no sexual relation involved at all.

[MMI]

So I have to ask: Does not getting caught make it okay to do?

No. It just means there are no consequences.


Now ... hands up people who are willing to tell their partner, Honey, I love you, but you suck at sex, so I'm cybering a slut on the internet because she makes me feel better than you do

Arria: So I see very little chance that such a cowardly person will invite trouble by admitting to wrong-doing.

That is how I feel about it - speaking as a coward.


Personally, I would still love my wife if we never had sex, and I'd hate to cause her heartache. After 36 years, it'll take more than animal lust (or the want of it) to separate us. But I'd still look for nookie elsewhere if I thought I could get away with it.

So far ... so good.

[Ragoczy]

No. It just means there are no consequences.


Now ... hands up people who are willing to tell their partner, Honey, I love you, but you suck at sex, so I'm cybering a slut on the internet because she makes me feel better than you do

Personally, I would still love my wife if we never had sex, and I'd hate to cause her heartache. After 36 yeaers, it'll take more than animal lust (or the want of it) to separate us. But I'd still look for nookie elsewhere if I thought I could get away with it.

So where's the line? Where's the thing that, even if you could guarantee there'd be no consequences to you, you still wouldn't do?

(Devil's getting his money's worth this month.)