gorean information needed

[bug]

i am interested in learning a little gorean *nodnod* and was curious if A/anybody had any information or would be willing to help me understand it a little better *s*

A/any help would be wonderful for me *s*

buggy{Blade}

[alexandra_p27]

Hmm, what should I say: I have read the first 6 or 7 novels of
John Norman. You get them in ebay or amazon (2.hand)
But I must they that even though the setting and ideas are very good
I think that Norman really lacks on good writing skills.
After having read some of the books I got bored by his style.

What else to day about "Gor"

I guess you better try google.
There should be about 1,386*10^7 communities on the net.

[redEva]

Bug,

I have to totally agree with Alexandra here. I love the idea, I love the setup, I love the interaction and Norman’s amazingly detailed imagination. But, he is lacking some serious skills! And yes, unfortunately books become boring, quickly. I do think of myself as having pretty high tolerance and patience, but I had to take break after 6th book. I will, hopefully, get back to him, some day lol.

For a while, the whole collection was available on Geocitys site (free for download) but it has disappeared.

There certainly is at least 1234 x X Gorean sites … unfortunately all I that I ever encountered are not tolerant to newbies and those that are “just” curious and or interested in the “lifestyle”. They (Goreans) take themselves pretty … serious!

So … the best idea is to find books, best read in order (for as long as you can stand them) and take it from there. Hope you have fun!

[alexandra_p27]

[QUOTE=redEva]
There certainly is at least 1234 x X Gorean sites … unfortunately all I that I ever encountered are not tolerant to newbies and those that are “just” curious and or interested in the “lifestyle”. They (Goreans) take themselves pretty … serious!
QUOTE]

Many communities are private and I think those people know exactly why!
But if you are only looking fpr information on the books you will find enough
sites to provide you with it.

[slo18]

www.gor.net is a good page to start with. and I beleive they even have a humor section, proveing that they dont ALL take themselves so seriosly.

[GaelstormIRA]

http://www.gor-on-earth.com/
http://www.gor.net/encyclopedia.html

These will help you start off. I agree mostly with what has been said about the books, I got to then tenth one. But haven't really had the chance or need to go too much further. The books are rich with detail, but after reading him saying the exact damn thing so many times I got annoyed. But still a good read, so if you are really interested I suggest you try to find the first few an check them out.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Hello,

I'm not an "Old Guard" dominant.
I'm not a "BDSM Purist."
I'm not even a seriously strict dominant.

When I read that people seriously treat the Gor series of fiction as a BDSM bible, I cringe.

bug's original quote was: "i am interested in learning a little gorean" From that one line, one could easily assume that she would like to learn the Gorean language, that she is interested in reading the books, or finding out more about the accumulated works of John Norman. However, as we are on a BDSM site, that does seem a dubious assumption. So, here we are. Instead of being an informative thread on Gorean sites, fiction, and John Norman's works, we instead have an opinion forum regarding the "Gorean" BDSM cult.

Okay. Well enough.

I will start my addition to this opinion piece by stating clearly and openly that John Norman's Counter-Earth collection of books was a well-written, if not a bit contrived, work of series fictions that ran from the late 1960s to the mid 1980s. Norman pumped out one 200-350 page "Gor" novel every year for 25 years and did a fairly decent job of creating a well-thought-out science fiction world of fantasy and adventure. (Tolkien's world was better, but nobody that I know of has started a BDSM cult surrounding his world as of yet.) His books were so well-received in the 70s and 80s that he attracted such cover artists as Boris Vallejo and Christos Achilleos. I very much enjoyed reading the collected works as what they are, works of science fiction and fantasy.

I, however, seriously question the sanity of those that see them as BDSM bibles and the "stone tablets" by which to establish a sect of quasi-BDSM. Why? There is ONE really good answer to that question: Consensuality.

Consensuality has always been a founding pillar of BDSM. In the old days of SSC (safe, sane, and consensual) play, the element of consensuality HAD to be respected. Even in the new days of RACK (risk-aware consensual kink), the consensuality element is not lost. That is because it MUST exist in ANY BDSM relationship. Without exception, bondage, discipline, domination, submission or slavery without consent is RAPE or ABUSE!

If there's one thing all the "Gorean" sect seem to forget, it is that the slaves of Gor very, very rarely are slaves by their own consent. Sure, Talena consented to slavery to avoid her father's wrath, but that's about the only example I can think of out of 25 books. For the most part, the slaves of Gor are kidnapped and raped and eventually come to accept their submission, and even (in a very Stockholm syndrome) kind of way, come to love it.

Okay. Fine. That happens. I've written stories that ended that way, or were supposed to end that way if I'd ever finished them. I can respect that to some degree. However, that's where the lines of fantasy and reality become blurred to the typical Gorean, it seems.

To then have the girl think that they can be mouthy or disrespectful and walk away with no consequence is the one thing that proves if a girl is a true submissive or not.

Well, no. To have a girl think she can be mouthy and disrespectful and then walk away from it without consequence is realistic. These are not the Plains of Turia, we do not live in a caste society, and enforced slavery is illegal. For a girl to be mouthy and disrespectful is her prerogative. If she chooses to be submissive, then she can equally choose not to be anymore at any time, because that's her choice!

Gor is about disapline and submission. Not about s/m or pain. I have read 16 of the books and not one girl in there wanted to be whipped.

Well, duh! Not to sound disrespectful of your opinion, but I would dare to say that probably 100% of women who are kidnapped and raped don't want to be whipped, too! Common sense would sort of dictate that, I would think. And "Gorean submission" is about pain. Look at all the examples: disciplinary whippings, brandings, forced piercings. The list goes on, but I'm trying not to write a novel of my own. So, I would directly contradict this statement and say if masochism is your thing, "Gorean training" may be just right for you.

Another of the things that make me feel Goreans might have lost touch with reality is the fantasy element of it all.

this one has gorean-foundation-training

Yes, that one line made that obvious. In fact, you could have not even admitted it openly and many of us would still have known. The use of "this one" and "this girl" and "this slave" have insinuated their way into our chat rooms, forums and even some of our real-life scenes as a direct result of Gorean fantasy. I had a submissive once, a really nice girl, and we tried that referring to oneself in the third person thing for awhile. It worked for about ten minutes until she finally just said, "Look, this is just too fucking awkward." and we quit.

I recognize the need for fantasy in BDSM play. I really do. And I'm sure Gorean fantasy is a great one, but I must say that, nearly to the individual, every Gorean that I have ever met in real-life or online (and I've know quite a few IMNSLE) have carried the fantasy of it way too far. It's almost like they're showing off, it's so open, overt and conspicuous. It shows a resounding amount of ego, and in most cases it's rude.

Speaking of ego:

In this one's experienced but still humble opinion, there is no better training or level of obedience than that of a gorean slave...

Does this NOT just smack of ego and pride? Wouldn't a "true Gorean slave girl" be punished for such a display of pride and ego?

In reality, I know many submissives, male and female, that would hotly refute that claim. Your training is what YOU make of it, not what name you attach to it or what label you slap on it. I could just as easily make the claim that toilet whores have the best level of obedience because they have the discipline to eat feces. It still doesn't make it anything more than just an opinion.

As I said, I respect everyone's opinions of things like Gor. I just wish they didn't always seem to come with all the added baggage. The simple fact is: There is no "one true" type of submissive. Submissives, or slaves, or whatever you want to call them are all just variations of the same theme. There is no "perfect" level of obedience, because everyone has something they will not, or at least should not, do. Whether it's for matters of health, legality, or otherwise, all "real" submissives should have some limits.

And all "real" dominants should have some common sense, but they don't. The first and foremost concern of any real dominant should be the safety of his submissive. So, placing one's slave in an atmosphere of non-consesuality, even if it's an assumed atmosphere of non-consensuality, demonstrates a lack of concern for that slave, doesn't it? To assume that a slave should just submit to the whims of her master and like it, regardless of the consequence is completely deranged and egotistical.

Contracts, negotiations, limits, and safewords do not exist in the "true Gorean lifestyle," and because of that Goreans violate yet another of the tested tenets of the BDSM foundation: Safety. In the SSC system, not negotiating limits and not having a way out of a situation if it becomes dangerous or too intense is unsafe play. In the RACK system, one cannot consensually submit to the risks if they are not first apprised of those risks and offered a chance to set a limit. There again, the Gorean fantasy aspect trumps the reality of the situation. A submissive that is not allowed to say no and have that word respected is in a dangerous and unhealthy place. She may find herself dead one day because of her fantasy.

Like I said before, fantasy is great. I just wish more Goreans would treat Gor like a fantasy and less like a reality. Appreciate Gor for what it is: a work of fiction. Don't appreciate it for what it's not: an alternative to safe and consensual BDSM.

And that's my opinion in a not-so-short nutshell.

[Breathless]

As I delve into this site (and others), learning more each day about the subject of BDSM with which I have always been interested, I continue to be amazed by how much is out there! I had never even heard of Gor until I saw the new member post yesterday, and immediately started researching it.

While my research certainly piqued my interest to read John Norman's series of books, I cannot adequately express my wholehearted agreement with our Tour Guide's well-written opinion on the subject! I would think that as members of a scene that is often misunderstood or disdained, we would all try to be non-judgmental - not placing one type of kink or scene above another.

Thank you Tour Guide for your excellent summary and response!

[tabuk]

Think my post didn't get the messege across that i wanted.

Gor rooms and the fantasy is no replacement for bdsm but it is a part of BDSM. The BD part. BDSM is a reality, Gor can only be in certain aspects. Its more of a philosophy based on Ancient cultures and loosely on Nietzche.

Yes people have a choice, in Gor that choice is to have total control taken away over everything, no safe words nothing. That is the choice you make and yes you can change it. That usually means being dissed and leaving. Being marked as a "player".

So if you want to be taken seriously as a Gorean then you cant just be mouthy and disrespectful ..... is what i was trying to say ...... It annoys the hell out of Goreans. I know however that the reality of it is that some will do the mouthy disrespectful bit, just dont expect to be respected after it is all I am saying. It shows if you are truely into Gor or not.

As for the pain issue, yeah there are lots of examples of pain giving, but the pain receiving is not the fetish, its not enjoyed, its not used as a sexual gratification. Its used as punishment and as a control...... I was warning ppl that if they want the online whipping scene, or pain scene, dont go to Gor chat and be naughty expecting a good session. It wont happen. Unless you find a BDSM partner there. If you are looking for pain and expect a good flogging for being disobedient, dont you will more than likely get an essay to write on your wrong doings. Not much fun huh. LOL. The forced piercings were the ears and nose only. No other areas were pierced. The training is not beatings, piercings and brandings. Its about control and disapline. Being able to portray yourself in complete disapline and absolute beauty is the key. Brandings were not given to make the slave cream there silks. Its given to mark the skin, to show others you are slave. Its done to let the slave know there is no turning back and to get used to it. Pain in Gor is to produce absolute fear not make you so horny you like it and beg for more. A gorean slave is more likely to beg NOT to be whipped.

Yeah Gor should be taken for what it is a philosophy that has its flaws, and when you ask about those flaws they get very annoyed. Some ppl will argue that Gor can be taken into real life. My question to them is ...... Do you feel total fear for your life in this situation? Do you fear your Master putting a sword through your belly cos you did something wrong? Do you fear being thrown in the local canal cos you spilt a drink? ........ If you get your arse whipped too much for your liking can you run and complain about it without the fear of being caught and put in exactly the same situation or having your hamstrings cut so you cant walk? ...... A fantasy, not reality. You cant even expect to fully understand Slavery unless you have experienced it and the laws of this land make that illegal. Only certain aspects can be placed into reality and there are many web sites on this issue.

I agree Gor should not be used as a BDSM bible. Its not. Its a series of science fiction books with one persons idea on a philosophy. If someone believes in that philosophy, then Gor is for you. Just dont ask too many questions lol.

And all "real" dominants should have some common sense, but they don't. The first and foremost concern of any real dominant should be the safety of his submissive. So, placing one's slave in an atmosphere of non-consesuality, even if it's an assumed atmosphere of non-consensuality, demonstrates a lack of concern for that slave, doesn't it? To assume that a slave should just submit to the whims of her master and like it, regardless of the consequence is completely deranged and egotistical.

In the books the main character actually killed a Master for being cruel. There is a limit as you say and the books clearly show it if you are looking . The trust between Master and slave is such that they can put total concent in that Masters hand. Its not a lack of concern, its a point of total trust, in the online and real life scene. The books its not trust at all, its all to do with disapline, if ya good you survive, if ya bad your dead.

Contracts, negotiations, limits, and safewords do not exist in the "true Gorean lifestyle," and because of that Goreans violate yet another of the tested tenets of the BDSM foundation: Safety. In the SSC system, not negotiating limits and not having a way out of a situation if it becomes dangerous or too intense is unsafe play. In the RACK system, one cannot consensually submit to the risks if they are not first apprised of those risks and offered a chance to set a limit. There again, the Gorean fantasy aspect trumps the reality of the situation. A submissive that is not allowed to say no and have that word respected is in a dangerous and unhealthy place. She may find herself dead one day because of her fantasy.

I will repeat this, the Gorean scene is about disapline, its not about titty torture or cbt etc. I put my total trust in my husband because he is into the Gor scene. He is about seeing the beauty in women. Not about whipping them till they die. I know for a fact that he will not beat the crap out of me cos thats not what I am into. I like the thought of being colared, leashed, bound. I like being dominated. The Gorean reality is different to the books. It has to be. I agree in a torture or pain enviroment that there is no replacement for the safe word and if one is not established then both partners are being careless and dangerous. Gor in the books does not portray a scene it is a world were pain and its manifistations are used as control over a population of slaves. Exactly the same way it was used in Ancient Rome and in "very sadly" the USA prior to the civil war.

Gor as a lifestyle is more about the command and domination. How that command can be followed with beauty and perfection. It is a valid scene within BDSM ...... I dont like too much pain. In fact I dont like much at all. Yet I dont sit here saying those that do should be put in a mental hospital. Its their thing and say ..... have extreme fun with it.

Perhaps I am lucky and found a partner who has taken the things from Gor that can be put into reality and left the fantasy for the role playing online and in the books. Logic has its place in all things, even love, sex and war. No Gorean slave would be stupid enough to annoy their Masters so bad that they would be killed for it. A Gorean Master did not have to dominate through the whip, it is done through will.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Everything you have described is the basis of any typical DS relationship. The only difference being the "Gor" moniker placed on it.

DS, not to be confused with SM, is simply domination and submission. Yes, a dominant may collar and leash his submissive, but the effect is likely to be one that makes her feel even more submissive to him. A dominant may correct a submissive using nothing more than a look or a word, but to the submissive that single look or just one word might be more hurtful than a hundred strokes of a whip will ever be to her. Creative dominants use their brains more than their hands. I know, for instance, that making a submissive write lines like she was being punished in grade school is probably more humiliating and effective as a disciplinary measure than any spanking I can administer. Personally speaking, I'd never spank a masochist for punishment anyway; she's just going to enjoy it and miss the whole point, right?

The primary difference between any DS relationship and a Gorean one is the fantasy. People in most DS relationships like first-person pronouns, the submissive know they might be required to be naked, or collared, or leashed, or disciplined if they are disobedient. Many expect it. Many dominants can teach a wide variety of positions without referring to them in a different language. However, most people don't feel the need to role-play their relationship like a long-lasting, live-action D&D session. The actual experience is enough.

I play D&D and I am a dominant in a BDSM relationship. To me, those are two separate and mutually exclusive thing. I do not feel the need to refer to my flogger as a slave whip, nor do I request my "wench" to bring me a cup of black wine when I want coffee. I can do without the fantasy, but still have the same experience.

And yes, I did say I was in a BDSM relationship, not just a DS one. There are several aspect of fetish and SM in our play that heighten our experiences and add to our fun, and we don't feel we have to leave them out because some book tells us we do. We have the freedom of will to do what we please without worrying that we're being "true" to the fantasy. So, why would someone choose to shackle themselves in such a way?

As I stated in my original post, I respect the desire for fantasy. I won't call it a need, because I truly fell people can live without many of them. Fantasies are great, though. I have a few that are my favorites. However, I do know where the fantasy ends and the reality begins. In my experience, that's where a lot of Goreans seem to fall short. As I mentioned before, I have known many Goreans online and off (the online ones are the worst, BTW) and many of them seem to share the same attitude, ego and experience. Most Goreans I have seen will enter a normal BDSM chat or forum and immediately insist their wishes be respected, people refer to them in Gorean terms, and they will actually try to assimilate that chat or forum into the Gorean "way." I think we even had a Gorean guy here on these forums previously that insisted we open a Gorean-only section of the forums and chat.

It's that ego and lack of respect that turn me off the most from the fantasy. When I go to another country, to another state, or even to another forum, I am expected to respect the rules or laws specific to that area. I don't try to change them to suit my needs. I don't try to force the BDSM lifestyle down peoples' throats and expect everyone to call me "Sir." I try to respect the indigenous population and their wishes. That separates the fantasy from the reality.

Again, this is all just my opinion. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about their choice of lifestyle or cult or religion or whatever. Mostly, what I'm saying here is that "Gor" is essentially BDSM, but some of the words are changed. The only real difference is the fantasy. And it's one I can live without.

[Bald_J_and_F]

Exactly, why should someone want to follow the 4th-class writings of a third-class writer? What a limitation! And when we see the "servings" of slaves in Gorean rooms, we are reminded of a cake with way too much icing: Everything is tiny and elegant and graceful. Too much sugar in that! Friede once made the remark "Gracefully spinning on her tiny heels she wraps her floating silken robe around her, her tinkling silvery laughter echoing from the marble walls, and clumsily falls down the rugged castle stairs" in a Gorean room. They didn't like it much lol.
What's more: Anyone who thinks of transporting the fiction of Gor into real life should think of the fate of slaves that were no longer needed in the Gor books: They were simply killed.

[His_pita]

This was a very interesting read. I just met someone on another board that calls himself a Gorean and we had a couple of exchanges about how his thoughts were much better then the "traditional" D/s relationship. I checked out his links and it all seemed like a bunch of fantasy to me. Which is totally fine for anyone who is into it. I just don't like when someone thinks their way is better. But, I don't like labels being attached to my D/s relationship at all by outsiders. I feel it is up to us to decide what we want and how we want it.

I actually just wanted to say to BDSM_Tourguide that you have the most articulate post. I always enjoy reading anything you have to say because it's so well written. Thanks