i am interested in learning a little gorean *nodnod* and was curious if A/anybody had any information or would be willing to help me understand it a little better *s*
A/any help would be wonderful for me *s*
buggy{Blade}
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i am interested in learning a little gorean *nodnod* and was curious if A/anybody had any information or would be willing to help me understand it a little better *s*
A/any help would be wonderful for me *s*
buggy{Blade}
Hmm, what should I say: I have read the first 6 or 7 novels of
John Norman. You get them in ebay or amazon (2.hand)
But I must they that even though the setting and ideas are very good
I think that Norman really lacks on good writing skills.
After having read some of the books I got bored by his style.
What else to day about "Gor"
I guess you better try google.
There should be about 1,386*10^7 communities on the net.
:D
Bug,
I have to totally agree with Alexandra here. I love the idea, I love the setup, I love the interaction and Norman’s amazingly detailed imagination. But, he is lacking some serious skills! And yes, unfortunately books become boring, quickly. I do think of myself as having pretty high tolerance and patience, but I had to take break after 6th book. I will, hopefully, get back to him, some day lol.
For a while, the whole collection was available on Geocitys site (free for download) but it has disappeared.
There certainly is at least 1234 x X Gorean sites … unfortunately all I that I ever encountered are not tolerant to newbies and those that are “just” curious and or interested in the “lifestyle”. They (Goreans) take themselves pretty … serious!
So … the best idea is to find books, best read in order (for as long as you can stand them) and take it from there. Hope you have fun!
[QUOTE=redEva]
There certainly is at least 1234 x X Gorean sites … unfortunately all I that I ever encountered are not tolerant to newbies and those that are “just” curious and or interested in the “lifestyle”. They (Goreans) take themselves pretty … serious!
QUOTE]
Many communities are private and I think those people know exactly why!
But if you are only looking fpr information on the books you will find enough
sites to provide you with it.
www.gor.net is a good page to start with. and I beleive they even have a humor section, proveing that they dont ALL take themselves so seriosly.
http://www.gor-on-earth.com/
http://www.gor.net/encyclopedia.html
These will help you start off. I agree mostly with what has been said about the books, I got to then tenth one. But haven't really had the chance or need to go too much further. The books are rich with detail, but after reading him saying the exact damn thing so many times I got annoyed. But still a good read, so if you are really interested I suggest you try to find the first few an check them out.
this one has gorean-foundation-training.. meaning, often P/people will assume this one is a gorean slave and asks her what colour silks she wears... to which this one usually replies with a hidden smirk "we're allowed to wear CLOTHES in here????".
Heheheh...
In this one's experienced but still humble opinion, there is no better training or level of obedience than that of a gorean slave...
However... this one lives on planet Earth, thank Y/you very much!
So... for A/anyone starting out with the whole Gor experience this one would say to Y/you... learn the foundations of Gorean methods, training, obedience and devotion, and discard the theatrics and scenery.
Take with Y/you the personal impact of the play, not the stage... :)
crimson well said. This girl has been lucky enough to find a online home that she can go to and shat with otheris in the Gorean lifestyle. Most of them she finds helpfull and she has been doing it for only 6 months now.
But not knowing what you are looking for question wise this gilr is sorry that she can't help more. She has read up to book 16 and will be finishing the all 26 one day. One thing that this girl can tell You is that it is not like BDSM. The lifestyle is more structured from what this girl has seen.
Greetings
I was heavily into online Gor over 4 years. There are many many sites and many many so called Goreans with egos worse than the average egotistical maniac.
I totally agree with crimson. The theatrics are somewhat exasperating to say the least and its what you get out of it that is most important.
Some sites are very "be Gorean or be GONE" and this leads to most going unfortuneatly, including me who asked too many questions in the wrong places. It can be very rewarding though. As a "first girl" for over a year the passing on of the knowlaedge i gained was great. If the girls were willing to learn and be trained that is. Online Gor is where I met my hubby. The best thing i can say is get into a good chat room/irc channel and go from there. They will be very demanding of your time and the real Goreans out there will expect only the best. They are very serious and will expect you to be as well. Most do allow you to "watch or observe" the rooms without any commitment for a few days though.
My hubby was a former online slave trainer/city administrator and found the biggest problem that Gor has online is the girls do not take what goes on there with the seriousness that it is due. People spend time, money and energy to train a girl in the Gorean ways. To then have the girl think that they can be mouthy or disrespectful and walk away with no consequence is the one thing that proves if a girl is a true submissive or not. There is no real way to enforce a Masters will online but if a girl is willing to submit to a Master with the conditions that the online enviroment gives then she should also be willing to work within that enviroment. If you want to do Gor online make sure you are serious about it.
Gor is about disapline and submission. Not about s/m or pain. I have read 16 of the books and not one girl in there wanted to be whipped. It was a control mechanism not a fetish. So please, if pain is your thing dont go looking for it from a true Gorean room. It more than likely wont be there.
There is lots more to say on the subject and if you want to know more please contact me ;)
Taby.
Hello,
I'm not an "Old Guard" dominant.
I'm not a "BDSM Purist."
I'm not even a seriously strict dominant.
When I read that people seriously treat the Gor series of fiction as a BDSM bible, I cringe.
bug's original quote was: "i am interested in learning a little gorean" From that one line, one could easily assume that she would like to learn the Gorean language, that she is interested in reading the books, or finding out more about the accumulated works of John Norman. However, as we are on a BDSM site, that does seem a dubious assumption. So, here we are. Instead of being an informative thread on Gorean sites, fiction, and John Norman's works, we instead have an opinion forum regarding the "Gorean" BDSM cult.
Okay. Well enough.
I will start my addition to this opinion piece by stating clearly and openly that John Norman's Counter-Earth collection of books was a well-written, if not a bit contrived, work of series fictions that ran from the late 1960s to the mid 1980s. Norman pumped out one 200-350 page "Gor" novel every year for 25 years and did a fairly decent job of creating a well-thought-out science fiction world of fantasy and adventure. (Tolkien's world was better, but nobody that I know of has started a BDSM cult surrounding his world as of yet.) His books were so well-received in the 70s and 80s that he attracted such cover artists as Boris Vallejo and Christos Achilleos. I very much enjoyed reading the collected works as what they are, works of science fiction and fantasy.
I, however, seriously question the sanity of those that see them as BDSM bibles and the "stone tablets" by which to establish a sect of quasi-BDSM. Why? There is ONE really good answer to that question: Consensuality.
Consensuality has always been a founding pillar of BDSM. In the old days of SSC (safe, sane, and consensual) play, the element of consensuality HAD to be respected. Even in the new days of RACK (risk-aware consensual kink), the consensuality element is not lost. That is because it MUST exist in ANY BDSM relationship. Without exception, bondage, discipline, domination, submission or slavery without consent is RAPE or ABUSE!
If there's one thing all the "Gorean" sect seem to forget, it is that the slaves of Gor very, very rarely are slaves by their own consent. Sure, Talena consented to slavery to avoid her father's wrath, but that's about the only example I can think of out of 25 books. For the most part, the slaves of Gor are kidnapped and raped and eventually come to accept their submission, and even (in a very Stockholm syndrome) kind of way, come to love it.
Okay. Fine. That happens. I've written stories that ended that way, or were supposed to end that way if I'd ever finished them. I can respect that to some degree. However, that's where the lines of fantasy and reality become blurred to the typical Gorean, it seems.
Well, no. To have a girl think she can be mouthy and disrespectful and then walk away from it without consequence is realistic. These are not the Plains of Turia, we do not live in a caste society, and enforced slavery is illegal. For a girl to be mouthy and disrespectful is her prerogative. If she chooses to be submissive, then she can equally choose not to be anymore at any time, because that's her choice!Quote:
Originally Posted by tabuk
Well, duh! Not to sound disrespectful of your opinion, but I would dare to say that probably 100% of women who are kidnapped and raped don't want to be whipped, too! Common sense would sort of dictate that, I would think. And "Gorean submission" is about pain. Look at all the examples: disciplinary whippings, brandings, forced piercings. The list goes on, but I'm trying not to write a novel of my own. So, I would directly contradict this statement and say if masochism is your thing, "Gorean training" may be just right for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by tabuk
Another of the things that make me feel Goreans might have lost touch with reality is the fantasy element of it all.
Yes, that one line made that obvious. In fact, you could have not even admitted it openly and many of us would still have known. The use of "this one" and "this girl" and "this slave" have insinuated their way into our chat rooms, forums and even some of our real-life scenes as a direct result of Gorean fantasy. I had a submissive once, a really nice girl, and we tried that referring to oneself in the third person thing for awhile. It worked for about ten minutes until she finally just said, "Look, this is just too fucking awkward." and we quit.Quote:
Originally Posted by crimson
I recognize the need for fantasy in BDSM play. I really do. And I'm sure Gorean fantasy is a great one, but I must say that, nearly to the individual, every Gorean that I have ever met in real-life or online (and I've know quite a few IMNSLE) have carried the fantasy of it way too far. It's almost like they're showing off, it's so open, overt and conspicuous. It shows a resounding amount of ego, and in most cases it's rude.
Speaking of ego:
Does this NOT just smack of ego and pride? Wouldn't a "true Gorean slave girl" be punished for such a display of pride and ego?Quote:
Originally Posted by crimson
In reality, I know many submissives, male and female, that would hotly refute that claim. Your training is what YOU make of it, not what name you attach to it or what label you slap on it. I could just as easily make the claim that toilet whores have the best level of obedience because they have the discipline to eat feces. It still doesn't make it anything more than just an opinion.
As I said, I respect everyone's opinions of things like Gor. I just wish they didn't always seem to come with all the added baggage. The simple fact is: There is no "one true" type of submissive. Submissives, or slaves, or whatever you want to call them are all just variations of the same theme. There is no "perfect" level of obedience, because everyone has something they will not, or at least should not, do. Whether it's for matters of health, legality, or otherwise, all "real" submissives should have some limits.
And all "real" dominants should have some common sense, but they don't. The first and foremost concern of any real dominant should be the safety of his submissive. So, placing one's slave in an atmosphere of non-consesuality, even if it's an assumed atmosphere of non-consensuality, demonstrates a lack of concern for that slave, doesn't it? To assume that a slave should just submit to the whims of her master and like it, regardless of the consequence is completely deranged and egotistical.
Contracts, negotiations, limits, and safewords do not exist in the "true Gorean lifestyle," and because of that Goreans violate yet another of the tested tenets of the BDSM foundation: Safety. In the SSC system, not negotiating limits and not having a way out of a situation if it becomes dangerous or too intense is unsafe play. In the RACK system, one cannot consensually submit to the risks if they are not first apprised of those risks and offered a chance to set a limit. There again, the Gorean fantasy aspect trumps the reality of the situation. A submissive that is not allowed to say no and have that word respected is in a dangerous and unhealthy place. She may find herself dead one day because of her fantasy.
Like I said before, fantasy is great. I just wish more Goreans would treat Gor like a fantasy and less like a reality. Appreciate Gor for what it is: a work of fiction. Don't appreciate it for what it's not: an alternative to safe and consensual BDSM.
And that's my opinion in a not-so-short nutshell.
As I delve into this site (and others), learning more each day about the subject of BDSM with which I have always been interested, I continue to be amazed by how much is out there! I had never even heard of Gor until I saw the new member post yesterday, and immediately started researching it.
While my research certainly piqued my interest to read John Norman's series of books, I cannot adequately express my wholehearted agreement with our Tour Guide's well-written opinion on the subject! I would think that as members of a scene that is often misunderstood or disdained, we would all try to be non-judgmental - not placing one type of kink or scene above another.
Thank you Tour Guide for your excellent summary and response!
Think my post didn't get the messege across that i wanted.
Gor rooms and the fantasy is no replacement for bdsm but it is a part of BDSM. The BD part. BDSM is a reality, Gor can only be in certain aspects. Its more of a philosophy based on Ancient cultures and loosely on Nietzche.
Yes people have a choice, in Gor that choice is to have total control taken away over everything, no safe words nothing. That is the choice you make and yes you can change it. That usually means being dissed and leaving. Being marked as a "player".
So if you want to be taken seriously as a Gorean then you cant just be mouthy and disrespectful ..... is what i was trying to say ...... It annoys the hell out of Goreans. I know however that the reality of it is that some will do the mouthy disrespectful bit, just dont expect to be respected after it is all I am saying. It shows if you are truely into Gor or not.
As for the pain issue, yeah there are lots of examples of pain giving, but the pain receiving is not the fetish, its not enjoyed, its not used as a sexual gratification. Its used as punishment and as a control...... I was warning ppl that if they want the online whipping scene, or pain scene, dont go to Gor chat and be naughty expecting a good session. It wont happen. Unless you find a BDSM partner there. If you are looking for pain and expect a good flogging for being disobedient, dont you will more than likely get an essay to write on your wrong doings. Not much fun huh. LOL. The forced piercings were the ears and nose only. No other areas were pierced. The training is not beatings, piercings and brandings. Its about control and disapline. Being able to portray yourself in complete disapline and absolute beauty is the key. Brandings were not given to make the slave cream there silks. Its given to mark the skin, to show others you are slave. Its done to let the slave know there is no turning back and to get used to it. Pain in Gor is to produce absolute fear not make you so horny you like it and beg for more. A gorean slave is more likely to beg NOT to be whipped.
Yeah Gor should be taken for what it is a philosophy that has its flaws, and when you ask about those flaws they get very annoyed. Some ppl will argue that Gor can be taken into real life. My question to them is ...... Do you feel total fear for your life in this situation? Do you fear your Master putting a sword through your belly cos you did something wrong? Do you fear being thrown in the local canal cos you spilt a drink? ........ If you get your arse whipped too much for your liking can you run and complain about it without the fear of being caught and put in exactly the same situation or having your hamstrings cut so you cant walk? ...... A fantasy, not reality. You cant even expect to fully understand Slavery unless you have experienced it and the laws of this land make that illegal. Only certain aspects can be placed into reality and there are many web sites on this issue.
I agree Gor should not be used as a BDSM bible. Its not. Its a series of science fiction books with one persons idea on a philosophy. If someone believes in that philosophy, then Gor is for you. Just dont ask too many questions lol.
In the books the main character actually killed a Master for being cruel. There is a limit as you say and the books clearly show it if you are looking :o. The trust between Master and slave is such that they can put total concent in that Masters hand. Its not a lack of concern, its a point of total trust, in the online and real life scene. The books its not trust at all, its all to do with disapline, if ya good you survive, if ya bad your dead.Quote:
And all "real" dominants should have some common sense, but they don't. The first and foremost concern of any real dominant should be the safety of his submissive. So, placing one's slave in an atmosphere of non-consesuality, even if it's an assumed atmosphere of non-consensuality, demonstrates a lack of concern for that slave, doesn't it? To assume that a slave should just submit to the whims of her master and like it, regardless of the consequence is completely deranged and egotistical.
I will repeat this, the Gorean scene is about disapline, its not about titty torture or cbt etc. I put my total trust in my husband because he is into the Gor scene. He is about seeing the beauty in women. Not about whipping them till they die. I know for a fact that he will not beat the crap out of me cos thats not what I am into. I like the thought of being colared, leashed, bound. I like being dominated. The Gorean reality is different to the books. It has to be. I agree in a torture or pain enviroment that there is no replacement for the safe word and if one is not established then both partners are being careless and dangerous. Gor in the books does not portray a scene it is a world were pain and its manifistations are used as control over a population of slaves. Exactly the same way it was used in Ancient Rome and in "very sadly" the USA prior to the civil war.Quote:
Contracts, negotiations, limits, and safewords do not exist in the "true Gorean lifestyle," and because of that Goreans violate yet another of the tested tenets of the BDSM foundation: Safety. In the SSC system, not negotiating limits and not having a way out of a situation if it becomes dangerous or too intense is unsafe play. In the RACK system, one cannot consensually submit to the risks if they are not first apprised of those risks and offered a chance to set a limit. There again, the Gorean fantasy aspect trumps the reality of the situation. A submissive that is not allowed to say no and have that word respected is in a dangerous and unhealthy place. She may find herself dead one day because of her fantasy.
Gor as a lifestyle is more about the command and domination. How that command can be followed with beauty and perfection. It is a valid scene within BDSM ...... I dont like too much pain. In fact I dont like much at all. Yet I dont sit here saying those that do should be put in a mental hospital. Its their thing and say ..... have extreme fun with it.
Perhaps I am lucky and found a partner who has taken the things from Gor that can be put into reality and left the fantasy for the role playing online and in the books. Logic has its place in all things, even love, sex and war. No Gorean slave would be stupid enough to annoy their Masters so bad that they would be killed for it. A Gorean Master did not have to dominate through the whip, it is done through will.
Everything you have described is the basis of any typical DS relationship. The only difference being the "Gor" moniker placed on it.
DS, not to be confused with SM, is simply domination and submission. Yes, a dominant may collar and leash his submissive, but the effect is likely to be one that makes her feel even more submissive to him. A dominant may correct a submissive using nothing more than a look or a word, but to the submissive that single look or just one word might be more hurtful than a hundred strokes of a whip will ever be to her. Creative dominants use their brains more than their hands. I know, for instance, that making a submissive write lines like she was being punished in grade school is probably more humiliating and effective as a disciplinary measure than any spanking I can administer. Personally speaking, I'd never spank a masochist for punishment anyway; she's just going to enjoy it and miss the whole point, right?
The primary difference between any DS relationship and a Gorean one is the fantasy. People in most DS relationships like first-person pronouns, the submissive know they might be required to be naked, or collared, or leashed, or disciplined if they are disobedient. Many expect it. Many dominants can teach a wide variety of positions without referring to them in a different language. However, most people don't feel the need to role-play their relationship like a long-lasting, live-action D&D session. The actual experience is enough.
I play D&D and I am a dominant in a BDSM relationship. To me, those are two separate and mutually exclusive thing. I do not feel the need to refer to my flogger as a slave whip, nor do I request my "wench" to bring me a cup of black wine when I want coffee. I can do without the fantasy, but still have the same experience.
And yes, I did say I was in a BDSM relationship, not just a DS one. There are several aspect of fetish and SM in our play that heighten our experiences and add to our fun, and we don't feel we have to leave them out because some book tells us we do. We have the freedom of will to do what we please without worrying that we're being "true" to the fantasy. So, why would someone choose to shackle themselves in such a way?
As I stated in my original post, I respect the desire for fantasy. I won't call it a need, because I truly fell people can live without many of them. Fantasies are great, though. I have a few that are my favorites. However, I do know where the fantasy ends and the reality begins. In my experience, that's where a lot of Goreans seem to fall short. As I mentioned before, I have known many Goreans online and off (the online ones are the worst, BTW) and many of them seem to share the same attitude, ego and experience. Most Goreans I have seen will enter a normal BDSM chat or forum and immediately insist their wishes be respected, people refer to them in Gorean terms, and they will actually try to assimilate that chat or forum into the Gorean "way." I think we even had a Gorean guy here on these forums previously that insisted we open a Gorean-only section of the forums and chat.
It's that ego and lack of respect that turn me off the most from the fantasy. When I go to another country, to another state, or even to another forum, I am expected to respect the rules or laws specific to that area. I don't try to change them to suit my needs. I don't try to force the BDSM lifestyle down peoples' throats and expect everyone to call me "Sir." I try to respect the indigenous population and their wishes. That separates the fantasy from the reality.
Again, this is all just my opinion. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about their choice of lifestyle or cult or religion or whatever. Mostly, what I'm saying here is that "Gor" is essentially BDSM, but some of the words are changed. The only real difference is the fantasy. And it's one I can live without.
Exactly, why should someone want to follow the 4th-class writings of a third-class writer? What a limitation! And when we see the "servings" of slaves in Gorean rooms, we are reminded of a cake with way too much icing: Everything is tiny and elegant and graceful. Too much sugar in that! Friede once made the remark "Gracefully spinning on her tiny heels she wraps her floating silken robe around her, her tinkling silvery laughter echoing from the marble walls, and clumsily falls down the rugged castle stairs" in a Gorean room. They didn't like it much lol.
What's more: Anyone who thinks of transporting the fiction of Gor into real life should think of the fate of slaves that were no longer needed in the Gor books: They were simply killed.
This was a very interesting read. I just met someone on another board that calls himself a Gorean and we had a couple of exchanges about how his thoughts were much better then the "traditional" D/s relationship. I checked out his links and it all seemed like a bunch of fantasy to me. Which is totally fine for anyone who is into it. I just don't like when someone thinks their way is better. But, I don't like labels being attached to my D/s relationship at all by outsiders. I feel it is up to us to decide what we want and how we want it.
I actually just wanted to say to BDSM_Tourguide that you have the most articulate post. I always enjoy reading anything you have to say because it's so well written. Thanks :)
Thank you. And you are certainly welcome. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by His_pita
Yep tourguide is very articulate and I will hopefully ... one day ... be able to do half as good as she does. :)
I left gor for exactly the reasons you have stated Tourguide. The ego [as i mentioned in my 1st post] and the lack of respect. The lack of looking outside the box. The lack of being able to discuss the flaws in the philosophy. The fact that Norman contradicts himself many many times through out the series and the fact that most "Goreans" argue continuously about these.
People choose to shackle themselves in such a way because they can and want to. Didn't you say in your 1st post here that people have choices? ...... It is their thing, their fetish. They are true to the books cos that is what they want. I dont knock other roleplaying scenes such as the sub who dresses in a diaper or the sub that likes to dress as a japanese school girl. I dont profess to understand the SM. That doesn't mean its any less important. I totally agree that when they say "the Gorean way is superior", that they are being egotistical. Its as good as any other. Not better than.Quote:
And yes, I did say I was in a BDSM relationship, not just a DS one. There are several aspect of fetish and SM in our play that heighten our experiences and add to our fun, and we don't feel we have to leave them out because some book tells us we do. We have the freedom of will to do what we please without worrying that we're being "true" to the fantasy. So, why would someone choose to shackle themselves in such a way?
You dont have to leave out what makes this fun and exciting for you. In the same light why should someone put it in when it doesn't make it fun for them. We are not all into S/M. Yes knock the ego of those who cant let the fantasy go, but dont knock the fantasy or the want of that fantasy as an erotic roleplay. Some people do want it. You dont like to mix the D&D with your scene and that is cool. But some people do.
That is what i hated about Gor chat rooms and reminds me why i left it. I like some aspects and parts of the philosophy. I do know however that it is roleplay and wish that most of them did to.Quote:
As I stated in my original post, I respect the desire for fantasy. I won't call it a need, because I truly fell people can live without many of them. Fantasies are great, though. I have a few that are my favorites. However, I do know where the fantasy ends and the reality begins. In my experience, that's where a lot of Goreans seem to fall short. As I mentioned before, I have known many Goreans online and off (the online ones are the worst, BTW) and many of them seem to share the same attitude, ego and experience. Most Goreans I have seen will enter a normal BDSM chat or forum and immediately insist their wishes be respected, people refer to them in Gorean terms, and they will actually try to assimilate that chat or forum into the Gorean "way." I think we even had a Gorean guy here on these forums previously that insisted we open a Gorean-only section of the forums and chat.
The Gorean philosophy of not being ashamed of being female and that a woman can show her sexuality was what drew me to it. A rape makes you think you are the worst and dirtiest whore alive. My selfworth had been thrown out the window and ground to dust which blew away in the wind. I was ashamed of being a woman. I am not anymore because of this lifestyle. It has its place in my heart and i know some of it is just roleplay. However some parts can be brought into the reality. :)... just because you dont agree with it, doesn't mean there is no point to it. For some it does have a point.
Some but not all Goreans do tend to have this ego that is bigger than the fantasy and believe it is the one and only true way to follow. If you can look past that, its quite interesting.
Your posts are worded very well and the ideas are easily understandable. Many people would say that makes them eloquent in their own right. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tabuk
The only issue I can take with the posts you have made if the statement you made above. I know I'm using "you" a lot, and that makes people defensive, but forgive me and please try to read on to the end with an open mind.
BDSM, in whole or in part, is not a replacement for therapy. Being raped and having your self-esteem ground into the dirt cannot be alleviated by the administration of bondage or submission. In fact, in many cases those thing will only serve to make the hurt worse. What can fix your self-esteem is talk. Communication. So, what you have told me is that, yes you found a relationship that fits you, but the more important thing to you is the relationship you formed with your master. You have obviously found someone in which you can trust and with whom you can communicate openly and honestly, and I would venture to guess that is what helped you. Not the BDSM, not the Gor, not the submission.
While I will admit that BDSM can be a very positive thing and BDSM can help people in a wide variety of ways, I will also be the first to admit that many people do not understand how to use it as a positive thing or how to administer it in a way that might be helpful. I have said this before, but I will repeat it here for your benefit solely. To the damaged mind, BDSM can be very attractive. The discipline, the rules, the structure of it all can instill one with a sense of worth, a sense of routine, and a sense of being needed. However, if carried into different avenues, many forms of BDSM play and activities can just as easily fracture the fragile mind farther than it already has been fractured previously.
Humiliation, emotional uncertainty, and even the discipline can tear one down even further, but the oddity is that, to the submissive, they feel like they are being built up. They feel safe with the disciplines in place and with the structure, but what they might not see is that they are replacing their pain with dependence. And this is not a specific example to you. This is a generalization in the broadest sense. A person woth low or damaged self-esteem may feel worthless and weak, and the disciplines of BDSM may make them begin to feel better and renewed and whole again. In some cases, this may be true. In some cases, it's not.
It's very much like in the military. The first thing they do is to strip you down to your barest, most vulnerable form, and then they introduce all their rules and discipline to show you what you can be and to mold you into the image they desire of you. The same can apply to a person who has been damaged by trauma. They have ben stripped down, and now they are desperately seeking a reason for it all and something to "heal" their wounds. Introduce discipline, especially rigorous discipline like you might find in a Gorean relationship, and you now have an ideal on which to be built. With proper communication and trust, that can be very good, but just used as a tool for sex, control or manipulation it can be very, very bad.
A person who is damaged needs to regain their control and their independence, not learn new, stricter ways to lose more of it. The best way to regain the feeling of control and independence is to share with people that can understand the situation, offer advice, and that can show the person that what has happened to them has not made them any less of a person. The event that damaged them has merely reshaped them in a way that has altered a belief system of theirs.
This is where BDSM may fail the person. Certainly, as mentioned before, the structure may feel nice, but is it demonstrating to the damaged individual that she is a healthy, normal person or is it just filling a hole that has been missing? Patching a hole without repairing it will just leave a hole that will re-open at some point in the future. It is only by making the hole whole again by talk, trust, and reliance, but not dependence, that a person can truly begin to be healed and renewed. And that is what I feel you found in your relationship. It could have just as easily been vanilla, regular BDSM or Gor; it was the person that mattered to you, not the choice of lifestyle.
Or I could be completely wrong. All I can tell you is what I have experienced. All I can hope is that by sharing this I have offered you some advice or something to think about that you might not have thought about previously.
And I know all of this post has been completely off-topic, but I did feel the point needed ot be made. Sorry to the people that are reading this in the hopes of finding Gorean information and instead finding "Dear Abby." LOL
I have to add my 2 cents worth, as I have read several of the Norman books.
A Gor is a fantasy world, plain and simple. What it portrays is abuse, plain and simple. Respect, growth, and love, rarely exist in the books. I don't know if the Gorean lifestyle track closely with the book, but I suspect it does to closely.
Love is a need, for humans. I see it nowhere in the Gorean philosophy.
The only time love was expressed in the Norman books I read, The slave was set free as a freewoman. The thread of that situation was the saddest of the entire series. Because, the fantasy didn't allow for masters to love, which meant she had to leave her beloved master forever. And her life as a freewoman was maybe more horrific than her slavery, because....
AS A FREEWOMAN, SHE DIDN'T GET ANY ANYMORE. ANY LOVE, ANY COMPANMANSHIP, OR ANY SEX EITHER. SHE WAS AN OUTCAST.
dumb.
That's my opinion, and as others say, add salt to taste.
First of all, welcome daddiebear50, nice to have you join us :) (btw very nice response in the But plug thread :)).
As for Gor … you are absolutely correct – it is fantasy world (for better or for worse), but, it seems to me you missed some of the books. While there is obviously the heavy accent on the Master/slave relationship, the dynamics of the power and surrender and love within, the free person, be it man or woman, has a chance and a choice, if the right partner comes along they can form free companionship, which in my understanding equals the marriage in our, less exotic society ;)
I agree that love is a need, but unlike you, I have found many, many different love examples and levels of involvement between characters in Gor books.
The part that captured my attention, was/is the accent on men being Man and women being feminine. Our society has done so much to “empower” women that females lost the femininity. On Gor, the primary reason for woman’s existence is to be pleasing to men. In return she is taken care for, provided for and loved (OK – in most instances, by someone lol). So… there you go – whole lota luvin going on ;)
Looking for a quick overview of the locality and locals?
‘The planet Gor lies in the same orbit around the sun as Earth. It is always 180 degrees behind and thus always directly behind the sun, rendering it undetectable from Earth. [...] Gorean civilization is primitive. The priest kings enforce a ban on modern weaponry. Persons who violate this ban are prone to suffer the mysterious 'flame death', a sort of spontaneous combustion. [...] Gorean males are 'real men' who feel that the proper place for a woman is on her knees. [...]
The Kurii are a race of space traveling savage beasts. They have come to our solar system from parts unknown and live in their steel ships out beyond the orbit of Jupiter. [...] To raise funds (apparently their own currency is not accepted on Gor), they abduct women from Earth to sell in the slave markets of Gor. [...] The average female abductee is at first horrified to discover she has been enslaved, but eventually warms to the idea and embraces her bondage in the realization that it has always been her secret desire to be enslaved and forced to serve men.’
Okay, so I’m not likely to get tickled and turned on by that particular fantasy planet due to my dominant orientation. Nonetheless I’m grateful to the talented author Harold for a pretty entertaining glimpse of Gor. I can’t comment on the original books, not having read any, where there may be those instances of companionship and love between free people redEva mentions.
The institution of nonconsensual slavery and its clichés being the big attraction of the planet Gor, this is what Harold wrote about. What daddiebear50 – welcome to the forums! – says applies to Harold’s story: No respect, no love. Abusive, dumb. But – this author did add a grain of salt.
‘All good plans were simple, and by that standard, this was a pretty good plan. I was going to stow away. All I had to do was find a girl they were going to snatch and sneak aboard their ship while they were engaged in her acquisition. There were several things I knew from reading the books. They often took women from New York. These women were usually employed in menial positions, unattached, extremely beautiful (but not without room for improvement through proper diet and exercise), and always snotty. They loved snotty women. Gorean men being what they were, there was probably a shortage of snotty women on Gor, making it necessary to import them. Snotty women drove me nuts. That's why I wanted to go to Gor...’
The story has two parts, Hitchhikers of Gor and Support Groups of Gor. Have fun! :)
hmmmnn.. perhaps this one didn't quite make it clear enough that she is NOT, nor ever has been, a gorean slave.
this one's training runs along similar lines to that of a gorean slave, however. Just to note - the reference to one's self in third person is far more broad in the BDSM world than the Tourguide gives credit for. Case in point - this one's first Master was/is openly against Gor and just about everything it stands for, but insisted this one refer to herself in third person, i.e. "this slave" and eventually "Your slave".
It had nothing to do with Gor - this one learned to do it well enough for it to become natural because she wished to obey the wishes and personal tastes of her Master - something any slave in any aspect of D/s would do. Isn't that part of the point of being Someone's slave? this one received pleasure from pleasing Him - so that part of ones's training ended up pleasing U/us both.
As for the statement regarding ego - since this one is not nor ever has been gorean - wouldn't a complimentary statement regarding another person or group of people be quite the opposite? this one has visited many Gorean chatrooms - some of them are over-the-top, stick-to-the-books Gor and this one left asap! However some of them discarded the theatrics, recognized the fantasy aspect and this one found their ways to be gentle, caring and very romantic... the slaves had some of the most intricate and interesting serves, from which this one learned so many things.
For the original author of this thread - by all means, learn all about Gor and their ways... and decide for yourself. Just remember that to generalize Gor into one lump would be like saying all Germans are Nazis and everyone who lives in Columbia participates in the drug trade. Not a fair conclusion, if you ask this one.
One other minor note - many people on this planet put their full faith into the world's oldest book and form their religious beliefs around it. Perhaps the O/ones that are the deepest into Gor, did the same thing. The written word can be very powerful. If it wasn't, no one would know who in the world Stephen King or William Shakespeare are.
Heck, if this one could write a book and form the "get rich without working" religion, this one is sure she'd have some followers, too! :)
Thanks Tourguide, in my case you are absolutely correct.
Your last post is very informative and so very true. I see many girls go into the gorean chat rooms and leave worse off than when they 1st got there for the exact reasons you mentioned. That not to say that Gor rooms are the only ones to have a certain type of ppl to go in and do this. Gor rooms are the only ones I have actually witnessed it going on. So not slamming Gor for that reason.
It wasn't until I met my husband that I gained the voice to ask questions. Gor was a senario/role play that interested us both, but it was the communication between us that actually helped.
off topic I know but have to written anything on here Tourguide? Would be very interested in reading if you have. Will have to experiment with the search options [if any].
Have I written any other posts in the forums? Yes. A few.Quote:
Originally Posted by tabuk
Have a I writeen any stories for the Library? Yes. A few. :)
I wasn't sure to which you were referring, so I answered both.
Ah, I ment stories and I actually for once used my noggin and made a search for your name. So have started to read :)
i was at one time being trained Gorean here on line so i can give you some info about being a Gorean slave and the Gorean lifestyle
the Gorean lifestyle is based on a series of books based on the writings of john norman andare beased on a planet called Gor witch is identical to earth but is hidden behind the sun and is rulled by beings known as the priest kings the ledgened is that there was at one time a war on Gor between the men and the women and the woman had lost the war but the priest kings did not want to kill the females so the priest kings had delaredthat from that day foward all females were to be slaves to the men of Gor.
Gorean Slave Info
A Gorean slave is just considered to be nothing more then a animal to there owner and they have all there freedom taken away from them they are at the mercy of all the free men and women of gor and a male slave gets treated worse then a female slave due to the fact that a male slave on gor is
a rare thing and a Gorean slave has to beg permission for everything and seeing as how they are just considered to be a animal they can not use there voice to comunicate they have to comunicate just as a animal would
Ok I just wanted to put my two cents in here because I am indeed a Gorean. Many Goreans actually end up being shunned by the BDSM community because of misunderstandings on both sides so maybe I can clear things up. It looks like everyone here is seeing Gor as a BDSM offshoot. This is simply not what it is. Any Gorean will tell you Gor is a philosophy, that was written by a philosopher. The simplest way to explain the Gorean belief is this, one should be true to their nature. That is all Gor means really. Men are the dominant sex and women are the submissive sex by nature according to Gor. That's all it is really. All the intricate rules and such are just borrowed from the books because they are symbols to Goreans (and because some of us like the kink involved in them :p ). We explain our philosophy the same way Norman did, by using the Gorean culture. We try to bring ourselves close to what we see as the epitome of human nature. I personally am somewhat lax about having my kajira follow every rule to the T because it really isn't important as long as she knows her place. She knows that her goal is total submission and really that's what makes her kajira. The kajira is the essence of submission. The main point is that some people go around calling themselves Gorean and making a big thing about it because they are just jerks. The philosophy is to be understood not paraded, any Gorean knows this. So if you intend to learn Gor I suggest reading the information in Sardaria http://www.geocities.com/gorean_community/index.html and if you feel that you can agree with all that is written you just might be a Gorean. Also it is commonly forgotten that not every Gorean woman is kajira! There is such a thing as a free woman.
edit* Wow I just went over the previous posts here and I am seeing some pretty crazy stuff lol. Please don't believe everything you hear about Gor. Please! It really isn't as extreme as some make it out to be. At least it isn't when it is taken correctly. I don't want to start calling out specifics but for instance Gor does not really require kajira to be animals. It requires them to be pleasing that's all. kajira may speak but hardcore Goreans will have them avoid using personal pronouns. Next Gor by philosophy doesn't really tolerate male slavery at all however it is found in the books. Male slaves are not rare on Gor in fact they make up most of the work force. They are only looked down upon because of their submissive position which goes against the whole philosophy/culture of Gor. I will edit in more if I find anything I want to comment on.
edit** I think it is also worth saying that Gor was conceived right around the time when feminism was at its strongest and Gor is somewhat of an anti feminism. This is why there is so much emphasis on nature and gender differences in Gor.
edit*** Gor is basically one big romance so anyone who tells you there is no love in Gor... Has not read Gor. The whole idea of Gor is that love only takes place when the feminine side of the feminine sex is recognized and the masculine side of the masculine sex is recognized. Practically every Gor book contains some sort of love story to show this and of course to make an interesting book out of. One must always remember that Norman probably intended to make interesting stories first and philosophy books second (if even that. Some say he might have put the philosophy part in by accident as a side affect of him having been a teacher for so long.) and a lot of the extremes in Gor are just because it is interesting to read about. He didn't want to make a whole book about someone baking cookies because no one would read it. I have said many times Gor is about 95% fantasy and 5% philosophy. It is just a matter of reading between the lines.